Doug T.
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Pettin' The Gator
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Post by Doug T. on Mar 9, 2011 10:16:08 GMT -5
Well said Bob! My Impala was large car, but it was big, fast, and I loved it I paid 300 bucks for it; the last time I looked, they were going for 10 grand+. The Hurst 442 was always one of my favorites. I haven't seen one of them in years. Have you ever made it down to one of the Hemmings' weekend meets? I've been wanting to go for years, maybe this time I'll make it to one of them. Doug
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Post by vintageslrs on Mar 9, 2011 14:33:58 GMT -5
A friend of mine had a '63 Impala SS with the 409/425 hp. A very nice and very fast car! White with a blue interior.
Bob
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Mar 9, 2011 16:37:43 GMT -5
Bob, no white jackets, pink carnations or pick-up trucks? ;D ;D ;D. Or were they right out of fashion? Seriously, thanks for that insight into why many Americans almost worship the Muscle Cars and their era. It's all a matter of image and the feel-good factor, and that explains a lot to me. Back in the1960s an engine tuning firm on the southern outskirts of London tried something almost along the same lines. As a demonstration car they took a Ford Zephyr Mk IV, the one with the big snooker table bonnet (hood), and mounted in it a 3.4 litre (207.5 cu in) Ford V6 Essex engine. So far a very easy job because the 3.4 Essex was used in the Zodiac with the same body shell. But this Essex was a real wolf in sheep's clothing. They threw away almost everything except the block and put in a specially heat-treated crankshaft balanced complete with lightened flywheel and racing paddle clutch from Automotive Products, special pistons, highly gas-flowed head with the inlet and outlet ports matched to the manifolds, two big Weber carburettors and hand-built tuned exhausts ending in 3 inch diameter tailpipes. They took off the McPherson strut front suspension and substituted a lowered wishbone suspension, threw away the rear springs and put in a full five-link suspension, plus a few other tuning mods I've forgotten about. For its debut they entered it in the "modified" class at a speed trial, popular events at the time where cars competed in pairs over a straight standing-start quarter-mile course, usually on a disused airfield rented for the day by the organisers. It was matched against a modified Chevvy Comaro fitted with a 6.5 litre (396 cu in) engine. I can't recall the times now, but it beat the Camaro by just under a car's length to take fastest time of the day. I don't think the company ever built or sold another of these cars. For one thing it was priced at £3,000 plus a new car to convert which would have cost nearly another £1,000. But the project brought them in more tuning work than they could handle for the next year. You mentioned the price of fuel as being 29c a gallon. Oh, I wish. How I wish!!!. At the moment in the UK it is nudging £2.00 a litre. A litre is 0.22 of a UK gallon and 0.26 of a US gallon, so for round figures you can say four litres to the gallon, £8 or $US 13 a gallon. Plus, compulsory insurance on someting like a modified rally car lookalike can be as high as £1,900 a year for anyone under the age of thirty. It's all put something of a damper on fun motoring for younger people. A couple of local lads told me they're putting their cars up on axle stands and hope to save up enough money to bring them out for three months in the summer so they can take them to a few shows. Sad! PeterW
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Post by dee on Mar 9, 2011 17:30:37 GMT -5
The trouble with UK is that we have way too many corners for most USA cars and we don't have the history of the muscle cars you love in over the pond !
My 1st car in 1970 was a new 602cc Citroen Dyane with O-60 in 30 secs and top speed of 75mph . Being stopped by the cops at 85 downhill with a tail wind [ way off the speedo ] was quite an occasion - they let me off as they could not believe it ! [ massive flywheel and twin cylinder engine designed to overun means the longer the downhill straight ... ]
I did update to a twin cam 1300cc Lancia Beta in 1979 though LOL - that would just reach 99 mph , but unlike the Cit hit a brick wall flat out
I have problems dating USA cop shows etc 'cos I can't date the cars easily LOL . But it does look kinda cool ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 18:00:24 GMT -5
One of our problems over here--at least in my part of the country, is the distances. We are 400 miles from Portland, Oregon, 500 miles from Seattle, 700 miles from San Francisco, 400 miles from Spokane, Washington and 350 miles from Salt Lake City, Utah--those are the nearest large cities. You can drive to most points in the U.K. in those distances.
Back in the 1970s the U.S. government tried imposing a 55 mph speed limit to save gas. That's fine if you are driving the less than 200 miles between Boston and New York but out here in the West you can actually feel yourself growing older during a 500-mile trip at 55 mph. So, we have to swallow and pay the price.
This summer we plan to take our trailer to the Oregon coast. At 10 miles per gallon pulling a trailer the trip will probably ruin a $500 bill just for fuel. But given the cost of entertainment now days -- even going to a movie can cost $50 with snacks included, $500 for gas for a week-long trip to the ocean is almost a bargain.
It would be a lot easier to swallow if it weren't for the fact that every time fuel prices jump, supposedly because of one international crisis or another, the oil companies report record profits.
W.
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 9, 2011 19:08:36 GMT -5
Wayne, even allowing for the difference in the size of the gallon, 10mpg is not a good return - that's about 12.5 mpg to me. Normally towing I used to get near enough double that with the petrol engined VW Passat. It will be interesting to see how the diesel Volvo S80 performs in a couple of weeks. I expect your trailer is a little bigger and heavier than mine.
Incidentally, I think Peter is a little pessimistic on the price of fuel in Britain : it is more like £1.35 a litre - well it is where we are.
I have to Oulton Park to watch motor racing from time to time, although I haven't been for several years. In saloon car races these days all the cars look the same and perform the same on every part of the circuit. Not so in late 1960s. I remember one race in particular where lap after lap a Mini Cooper, a Ford Mustang and a Ford Lotus Cortina slugged it out. The Mustang would power away on the straights, only to be beaten on braking by the Cortina and then the Mini would nip through with its tighter cornering ability. Come the next straight and the Mustang would blast past them again.
The Cortina was driven by Jim Clark who was killed soon after in a Formula 2 race in Germany. There are several photos around of him showing how you should corner in a saloon car.
There was a Ford Mustang which 'lived' near to us in that era. It had the registration plate TEN10.
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Post by olroy2044 on Mar 10, 2011 1:34:06 GMT -5
I have to weigh in on this. While the movie chase scenes are indeed over done, they have their basis in fact. During my mis-spent younger days I drove those heavy, high horsepower brutes in my every day working life. While our patrol cars were not "muscle cars" by strict definition, they shared running gear, drivetrains and powerplants with the muscle cars of the day. The police cars were longer wheelbased, full-sized 4 door sedans,as opposed to "mid-sized" cars such as the Pontiac GTO, the Chevelle, the Dodge Charger, the Plymouth Roadrunner, etc. Our cars were Dodge Polaras with special edition 440 CID engines, extremely stiff suspension, and automatic transmissions specially modified for police use. Differential gearing (final drives to you Brits ;D) was in the neighborhood of 2.88-1, which made the cars extremely fast on the top end. The prevailing design philosophy of the day was that cornering ability was improved by lessening the amount of body lean during hard cornering, so the suspensions were designed to be extremely stiff, rather than today's compliant high-tech suspensions. This design, coupled with the tire technology of the day (6-ply, bias construction tires--basically truck tires!) led to interesting methods of getting around a corner. With the very heavy engines sitting over the front wheels, and relatively no weight on the rear, the cars plowed horribly in a high speed corner. You could turn the wheels, and the car wanted to continue straight. The only way to get around a corner at speed was to dynamite the brakes, pitch the car sideways, and stand on the gas. If you did everything right, the car would gain traction as you lined up with the direction you wanted to travel, and off you would go! Of course this led to clouds of rubber smoke and shredded tires. Tire life was in the neighborhood of 3,000 to 6,000 miles, or one(!!) high-speed pursuit. Absolutely the fastest car I have ever driven was a 1969 Dodge. It had the police prepared 440, 3 inch exhausts, ceramic coated cast iron headers, and the afore-mentioned 2.88-1 differential. I have no idea how much horsepower that beast was putting out, but it was a lot!! I personally put that thing through the radar at (honest to God) 199 mph. That was as high as our radar would read. That was on a 10 mile stretch of completed but not yet opened 6 lane freeway. They were uncomfortable, loud, hot in the summer and cold in the winter (the coachwork was TERRIBLE), hard to handle and all but impossible to stop. I LOVED THEM!!! ;D ;D Roy
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 10, 2011 2:18:27 GMT -5
Roy, you are not expecting us to believe that police radar gave an honest reading are you?
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Post by vintageslrs on Mar 10, 2011 8:19:01 GMT -5
Roy--thanks for your memories and that 440 motor with that 2.88 gearing....I could believe that it was extremely fast, especially top end! And I'm glad to hear that you loved the old Polara 440 police cars!
Bob
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Post by Randy on Mar 10, 2011 11:33:24 GMT -5
I'll tell you all a story, and if you choose not to believe it, that's okay.
In 1970, I bought a 1969 1/2 440 6BBL Road Runner, (it was still on the showroom floor) that's the code A12 440 Magnum with 3 2 barrel carbs, with the fiberglass lift off hood. I was going south one afternoon on Interstate 79 on my way to New Castle Pa, and a Pennsylvania State Police Cruiser pulled up on my left side. I looked down and I wasn't quite going 70 mph which was the speed limit. The trooper tooted his horn, smiled, and motioned forward with his right hand. He was driving a 1969 Plymouth Fury III police interceptor. He gave another couple toots and looked at me with a big grin....then he put his foot to the floor! I thought oboy, this guy wants to race! I79 was a fairly new highway, and it wasn't finished all the way yet, so there wasn't much traffic. I stayed in the right lane doing 70....and he slowed down enough to be side by side with me again. He made the motions again and had a real determined look on his face as he hit the throttle again. I threw it up into 3rd gear and put it to the metal, then speed shifted into 4th. I could see my gas gauge going down as all 6 barrels of Holley carbs sucked it down like a gravy sucking pig! I flew past the trooper, and he dissappeared in my rear view mirror. In no time at all I was at the New Castle Exit, and pulled off and into a Sunoco station to get more gas. The trooper pulled in about 45 seconds later behind me. I pulled my wallet out, and put my drivers license on the trunklid of my Plymouth. He walked over, and said...."did you see those two kids drag racing?"......I said "huh?".... He looked at my license and said, "nice car Randy, I gotta go"...... The rumble of the 440 in his cruiser came to life and he pulled away, gave me a smile, and waved as he went out of sight.
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photax
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Post by photax on Mar 10, 2011 11:55:45 GMT -5
Randy, what a story ! Impossible in Europe, even in 1970, not only because the Police had 32 HP VW Beetles at that time. You would have blown them in the ditch ;D
MIK
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 10, 2011 14:45:21 GMT -5
Britain had various types of police cars in the late 60s and into the 70s, from the small (Mini, Morris Minor) medium (Ford Anglia, Morris 1100) large (Ford Zephyr - or were they Zodiac?- Rover, Triumph 2000) sports cars (MGB, Sunbeam Alpine, Daimler Dart) and fastest saloons (Jaguars). The list is by no means exhaustive.
Randy, I have a life-long friend who was in the police spending most of his time on traffic and the motorways. He would certainly believe it and so would I.
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Post by olroy2044 on Mar 11, 2011 2:31:21 GMT -5
As a follow-up to my previous post about the extreme high speed performance of that Polara, I need to add that it was ordered as some sort of special purpose vehicle by another agency in California. I don't remember now what the agency was, but I think it was the California State Police, which at the time was a separate agency from the California Highway Patrol.
The car was further modified even from police specifications into the unbelievable monster that it was. Due to the extensive modifications, delivery was delayed long enough that the 1970 model year cars were being delivered. The Dodge was declined in favor of the new cars, and my PD purchased it for a mere pittance. The "standard" Polara cruisers were fast in their own right, easily surpassing the specified top speed of 140 mph. Everything else was the same, the beastly handling, bad brakes, lousy coachwork, and all. But they were ALL terrific fun to drive! But none of them could touch that one super-fast example. It was totally impractical for a municipal police department, and borderline dangerous. Roy
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Mar 11, 2011 2:51:28 GMT -5
"But they were ALL terrific fun to drive!"
"Seat of the pants" driving at its best, or so it sounds.
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Post by nikkortorokkor on Mar 14, 2011 21:26:29 GMT -5
Sorry for the late resurrection of this topic, but I wanted to get my facts straight first. MOPAR downunder were represented by Chrysler, not Dodge. American MOPAR fans will probably find some of the names quite disorientating. Chrysler Valiant, backbone of the range, fair enough. But the two most famous 'hot' models, the Chrysler Pacer and the Chrysler Charger seem to grab randomly from MOPAR's names list. Here in NZ, as in Oz, we had a range of vehicle sizes from BMC Minis and Hillman Imps, through to Holdens (GM) Fords and Chryslers which were the equivalent of American compact sedans and wagons. Wile the Aussies now make some thundering V8s, in the 60s and 70s they were better known for light but robust sixes. This from MOPAR Muscle MagazineAs Chrysler was rolling undisguised race cars off their assembly lines since at least the early '60s in the United States, the Corporation's independently managed subsidiary in the southern hemisphere, Chrysler of Australia LTD, was contently pumping out staid and conservative vehicles. Although there was a scattering of Australian machines that whispered a hint of performance in the early '60s, notably the R-series Valiant, musclecars in the American tradition were all but absent on Australian production lines. In that era, Australians lived in a much more conservative and frugal world than their American brothers, and that was evident in their motor vehicles. Economy and practicality were major concerns in the Australian automotive market. As the taste for more muscle did strike Oz, Chrysler responded with the mighty Hemi Six. It might sound odd to Americans fed on a solid diet of V8s, but the light, high performance Hemi 245 drove some very fast cars which could run away from the 8s through the twisty bits. Even the smallest engine, the 215, equipped with a single-barrel carburetor, produced more power than the biggest American slant six — and it weighed less. 6 or not, I think that you'll agree that the VG Pacer is a pretty automobile. This '72 VG Pacer coupe sold recently for AUD31,000. It bears a family resemblance to the Dart. But my childhood dreams centred around the mighty Chrysler Charger. As a kid I drooled over one just like this which used to live around my neighbourhood. The Charger was much shorter than its Dodge namesake and particularly in NZ, with its plethora of small, twisty road circuits, became a useful tin top racer. You can read more about its six cylinder goodness at Octane, where I got the above photo: www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/octane_features/234895/chrysler_valiant_charger.htmlanother good site for MOPAR fans to find out about the Hemi Six is: www.valiant.org/valiant/hemi-six.htmlMichael
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