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Post by jerome on Apr 10, 2015 0:04:39 GMT -5
The January 1960 issue of popular photography magazine reported that canon planned to offer a 45-200 f2.8 zoom for their new canonflex. Nothing further appears to have been heard about it. I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything about this lens, as I've got one -- so I'm sure they made at least one.
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Post by jerome on Apr 10, 2015 0:11:57 GMT -5
The January 1960 issue of popular photography magazine reported that canon planned to offer a 45-200 f2.8 zoom for their new canonflex. Nothing further appears to have been heard about it. I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything about this lens, as I've got one -- so I'm sure they made at least one.
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Post by philbirch on Apr 11, 2015 4:13:57 GMT -5
I've asked my friends on a different forum and they tell me it doesnt appear to exist. Some good photos of it would be very nice. If it is what you say it is it is a very rare beast and may be quite valuable. post or link some images please. Ideally, Front of lens showing name and spec, rear of lens showing camera mount and general side on view showing focus, zoom rings and markings. There may be a serial number (possibly engraved on the rear of the lens), this is useful too.
thanks Phil
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Stephen
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Still collecting.......
Posts: 2,718
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Post by Stephen on Apr 11, 2015 9:59:07 GMT -5
1960 was very early for 35mm format Zoom lens designs, and patent issues abounded about them, with Kilfit, Kern and Zoomar, Pierre Angénieux etc., disputing patented designs.
All Japanese optical makers were working on them, and Canon may have decided to keep the early design for home market sale only, to prevent litigation about the Zoom to a minimium. Canon claimed to be the first to sell 35mm Zooms, and they were very expensive, which futher restricted distribution.
The rush of new designs as the 1960's went by was due to the realisation the Patents were near worthless, Zooms in various forms had been around since the turn of the century, and the patents had lapsed.
This allowed production of cheaper 35 mm Zooms to proceed, but it did not do the Zooms reputation any good as generally cheaper Zooms were pretty awful in quality. The poor image never seemed to affect Cine camera use, were Zooms were common by 1960, but they were very simple types.
Stephen.
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Post by lesdmess on Apr 11, 2015 10:47:46 GMT -5
The January 1960 issue of popular photography magazine reported that canon planned to offer a 45-200 f2.8 zoom for their new canonflex. Nothing further appears to have been heard about it. I'm interested to know if anyone knows anything about this lens, as I've got one -- so I'm sure they made at least one. Not even listed on Canon's site -> Canon R-Series lenses. You just might have a one-off prototype! And if that is a constant f2.8 then that must be a substantial lens!
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Stephen
Lifetime Member
Still collecting.......
Posts: 2,718
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Post by Stephen on Apr 11, 2015 11:14:29 GMT -5
As others say, this may be a one off, as Canon had no such zoom in 1960, but may have issued it later in the mid 1960's. Sounds like the Magazine jumped the gun on the date as one answer to the mystery.
The Canon RM was dropped in 1964, so the lens dates from that date latest, plus a couple of years as stock was sold. The only listed zoom in the R series was the 55-135/3.5 Zoom.
So the first thing is to see the shots of the lens and make sure it was made by Canon, and not "for" Canon, and has the correct R series aperture control rings for the Canon R series semi automatic iris.
If it is genuine Canon, then you may have a prototype from the Canon factory or one of a test batch to sell and test in Japan......as to value, it would be unknown till auctioned off.
Also I checked with a retired optical engineer I worked with and he estimates the lens to be impossible at the time(1960) with a F2.8 f stop, it must alter to about F6.3 at 200. Constant or at least limit T stop loss types were simply not made commercially in the 1960's, they did exist but were Pro TV types, or used in Hollywood.
Allowing for the extra zoom mechanism in the casing, at 200mm a F2.8 lens would be near 5 to 6 inch front element, a real monster. Later consumer lens for general market use a variable aperture, it may be 2.8 and about 4 inch at the front, but as it zooms the aperture radically alters. This kept the size under control.
Stephen.
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Stephen
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Still collecting.......
Posts: 2,718
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Post by Stephen on Apr 11, 2015 11:35:19 GMT -5
Another phome call, and He is firm they made no such Zoom for "sale". However Canon made lens for Television cameras of the curious 45mm to 200mm range, but these were only F4, and would not cover a full 35 mm frame anyway and were not the Canonflex breech mounting type........
Stephen.
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Post by philbirch on Apr 11, 2015 17:40:36 GMT -5
So in light of Stephen's reply. Lets see a photo...
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Post by jerome on Apr 13, 2015 2:17:30 GMT -5
As others say, this may be a one off, as Canon had no such zoom in 1960, but may have issued it later in the mid 1960's. Sounds like the Magazine jumped the gun on the date as one answer to the mystery. The Canon RM was dropped in 1964, so the lens dates from that date latest, plus a couple of years as stock was sold. The only listed zoom in the R series was the 55-135/3.5 Zoom. So the first thing is to see the shots of the lens and make sure it was made by Canon, and not " for" Canon, and has the correct R series aperture control rings for the Canon R series semi automatic iris. If it is genuine Canon, then you may have a prototype from the Canon factory or one of a test batch to sell and test in Japan......as to value, it would be unknown till auctioned off. Also I checked with a retired optical engineer I worked with and he estimates the lens to be impossible at the time(1960) with a F2.8 f stop, it must alter to about F6.3 at 200. Constant or at least limit T stop loss types were simply not made commercially in the 1960's, they did exist but were Pro TV types, or used in Hollywood. Allowing for the extra zoom mechanism in the casing, at 200mm a F2.8 lens would be near 5 to 6 inch front element, a real monster. Later consumer lens for general market use a variable aperture, it may be 2.8 and about 4 inch at the front, but as it zooms the aperture radically alters. This kept the size under control. Stephen.
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Post by jerome on Apr 13, 2015 3:15:52 GMT -5
Thanks, Stephen. I'm trying to do this on a cell phone and haven't figured how to post pictures yet.
The lens is a canon. The barrel says "CANON ZOOM LENS C-35 45-200mm 1:2.8" It has no specific mount as such only 70mm threads necked down to m42 screw And a canon adapter on which I've mounted an ftb to check it out.
It seems to work fine, but I've not had time to check it in detail. From the lack of a mount and the "c-35" I suspect it is a cinema lens. It weighs more than 5 pounds and as you surmised has a 95mm filter ring.
I think it's parfocal, but I'm not sure yet... Anyway, I'll try to get you some pictures as soon as I learn how.
Thanks again for your help-- Jerome
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 13, 2015 5:44:41 GMT -5
It sounds as if it is a Pro Canon TV camera Zoom lens, which may have a field large enough for 35mm. In those days the target in the camera was a valve, an image tube, and the target area was sometimes much larger than 35mm.
This one may well be that type if the back thread is so big. This is very different to modern digital sensors that are far smaller. It may even be a Studio camera lens, which used such large threads to mount the Zoom.
The lens would certainly work on a modern digital stills camera, especially the M4/3 type like Olympus or Panasonic, or the equivalent Canon or Sony digital systems.
All the above have suitable adaptors for m42. the only check would be to make sure the combination works to focus at infinity.
The lens may well work on a M42 film camera like Pentax et al,. or on a Canon breach to m42 adaptor.
It is almost certainlly not a full "Cinema" lens as such, they used Zooms, yes, but usually from specialist makers like Taylor Taylor Hobson, Zeiss, and Baush and Lomb.
Hollywood used Zooms from about 1950, but they are monsters in size and price, many thousands of $$$$......even a prime lens like a TTH deep field would set you back several thousand.
They needed lens that were razor sharp, very sharp indeed, to allow for losses in post production and making copies of the films.
TV was different, in that period the image was live, and the "poor" quality of the lens was covered up by the lower definition of analogue TV systems, so cheaper Zooms were the norm.
It could still be a Cinema lens, for less expensive films made for TV uses etc.
Information on the lens might be available from Canon themselves, they have a museum in Japan, of products produced over the long years they have made optical equipment.
Stephen.
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Post by jerome on Apr 18, 2015 21:01:04 GMT -5
Well, I can't figure how to send pictures on my phone.
I think I can attach some to an email if someone will email me at jnye127@gmail.com --
Here's my take on the history of SlR zoom lenses of 1959-60.
Three major camera makers introduced their first slrs in 1959-- and each one decided to enhance their offering with a state-of-the-art zoom lens.' Voigtlander chose the Zoomar 36-82 2.8. Nikon introduced their 85-250 4-4.5. Both lenses were ambitious, heavy and expensive. Canon went for a 45-200 2.8, which was extremely ambitious, heavy and expensive-- probably too much so.
When it came time to commit to production canon flinched. Their first production zoom was shorter on both ends and slower-- (55-135 3.5), and came out in 1964.
In my years of camera hunting, selling and collecting I've had an example of all three lenses and their associated Cameras in my hands. If I'd kept them I'd have a very nice mini theme collection -- the only one like it in the world.
Thanks, guys for taking me seriously-- And thanks again Stephen, for your expertise-- Jerome
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Post by lesdmess on Apr 18, 2015 21:11:22 GMT -5
Well, I can't figure how to send pictures on my phone. I think I can attach some to an email if someone will email me at jnye127@gmail.com -- Jerome Sent you an email.
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Post by lesdmess on Apr 19, 2015 14:59:00 GMT -5
Posted are the pics of the lens that Jerome sent to me -> Canon Zoom Lens C-35 45-200mm f2.8. Definitely a substantial looking lens and probably ambitious for that time although I can't seem to find anything on it myself. Can't see any similarities to any generation of the zoom lenses from Canon Lens Hall.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 19, 2015 18:17:00 GMT -5
Pretty certain from the shots, it was made for TV camera uses, or for 35mm Cine cameras. It's style is not the R series still type, and it has a threaded hole and bolt holes for a handle with knob to be fitted to the zoom ring, almost never done on still camera lenses. 45/50mm is about the usual standard lens to cover a 35mm cine frame, which is smaller than a 35mm still slide size.
Is the Aperture ring marked for F stops, or T stops, which is for movie use. It may have a coversion factor engraved to adjust against the F stop engraved, (T/.9) etc. T stops are actual transmission of light rather than theoretical F stops.
So if more information is needed then Canon themselves are the people to approach, direct to Japan rather than via an importer.
It may be an unusual lens, but if made for TV and film, they were made in low quantities, (hundreds), compared to still cameras, and nowadays uncommon, but whether it would attract collectors is an open question. I suspect that it was a relatively expensive specialist lens at the time. If it had been easy to make at a lower price, then Canon would have put it out in the R or F Breech mounts.
As they never did sell it as a still camera lens, it suggests higher cost, and possibly low performance for stills work. TV was low resolution and even 35mm Cine does not require much of a lens for basic productions.
Completely different were US/ UK cinema productions where the lens had to be 100% sharp to allow for the colour processing, and special effects losses in sharpness.
Zooms were simply disliked by the leading cameramen, and it took years to get accepted for regular film uses.
Stephen.
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