In search of the elusive Shanghai RF

[Deleted]

When we were in cChina I hoped we would have a chance to get to some flea markets. I've always wanted one of the Chinese Leica RF copies -- the best-known probably being the Shanghai. Several models were manufactured, including a Leica II copy similiar to the Soviet Zorki I and FED I.

When you are on a tour your time is pretty much accounted for. But we spent half of our last full day in Shanghai on our own in an area called the Bazaar. It was pretty much new items but on the fringes of the Bazaar were some shops selling all sorts of used items--aimed more at locals, I think, than at tourists.

I browsed through a number of shops but saw no old cameras anywhere. I suspect a person had to be pretty important to afford a camera like the Shanghai. In addition, it's not the sort of item that probably interests most Chinese today. I probably would have had more luck if I could have found a photographic store with used equipment but the Chinese, like the rest of the world, seem to be digital now.

Wayne

[drako]

>>I suspect a person had to be pretty important to afford a camera like the Shanghai. In addition, it's not the sort of item that probably interests most Chinese today.

I wonder about your conclusion, Wayne. I know that the Chinese adore Buicks because they were the cars driven by the big Chinese mucky-mucks back in the day, so the that brand took on a certain mystique there. I wonder if the Shanghai has a similar "glow" to it.

[herron]

Wayne -

I'm positive China has changed tremendously since I was there 22 years ago. But back then, I vaguely recall seeing a shop in downtown Shanghai that sold old cameras (back then it was rangefinders and old folders). I remember passing it on my way to find a music store, where I bought a Chinese mandolin my wife had admired ... and a flute, since they could not give me change in Foreign Exchange Certificates, only renminbi, the local currency, which I could not exchange.

Long story, remind me to tell it sometime. ;D

[herron]

Nov 18, 2008 14:14:07 GMT -5 @drako said:

>>I suspect a person had to be pretty important to afford a camera like the Shanghai. In addition, it's not the sort of item that probably interests most Chinese today.

I wonder about your conclusion, Wayne. I know that the Chinese adore Buicks because they were the cars driven by the big Chinese mucky-mucks back in the day, so the that brand took on a certain mystique there. I wonder if the Shanghai has a similar "glow" to it.

Don't know about a "glow" but the Leica IIIf rangefinder knock-off, Shanghai, was made in two versions during the 50s. I would imagine the current generation of Chinese are all interested in digital, now that they are so widely available, and they have the means to afford the purchase.

But, for collectors, the Shanghai is an interesting find. The latter version (58-II) goes today for about $300. The first version (58-I), if you can find it, is about $1000-1500.

[Deleted]

There also was the "Red Star" apparently pushed by Mao's wife. It is a has a Leica M mount and maybe a hundred bodies and wa, normal and teles were made for it. Supposedly the cameras, which looked a lot like a Leica M, had mechanical issus. I saw one once offered on Ebay and it went for several thousand dollars.

[scott]

I spent a month in Beijing in 2000, doing an intensive Chinese course. One of my guidebooks mentioned "the" camera market. Have any of y'll been there?

It was on the far west side of the city, on the last ring road. I rode the subway as far as I could, then walked the rest of the way, about 40 minutes. It was a big 4-story building with more than a hundred small family-run shops. I was especially interested in finding some vintage Chinese cameras, but those are hard to find even in China. Of course, Chinese don't want Chinese-made cameras, especially old ones --they wanted the latest Nikons and Canons. Some of the shops didn't sell cameras at all, but rather specialized in camera equipment, and some only did repairs. Most of the shops had shelves full of Japanese SLRs, a few had Rolleiflexes, Hasselblads and Leicas.

I think most of the shopowners were probably of the attitude that putting Chinese-made cameras on the shelf together with the Japanese and German cameras would have been 'bringing down the tone' of their shops. I didn't see any Chinese Leica-copies there, but a few shops had one or two Chinese TLRs in the back. But the vintage stuff was not going cheap by any means. I found a Hongmei 6x6 folder that I really wanted, but I couldn't talk the price down. I think he wanted US$50.

In one old part of town, about a 15-minute walk southwest of the main bus terminal that lay just south of TianAnMen Square, I saw quite a few fleamarkets and street-stalls, and I bought a TLR there. That was a very interesting district, with winding streets and lanes, many traditional, square courtyard houses, and shops with ornate stonework and facades that were obviously over 100 years old. I was surprised to see that some of the very old shops, way up high about the second story, had fading text in fancy script painted on the side, like "Ladies' Furs, Hats for the Ladies and Gentlemen, Fine Western Articles", etc. which couldn't have put there any more recently that the 1920s or 1930s. I was surprised that that sort of thing survived the Cultural Revolution. Perhaps very few could read it, and no one wanted to go the trouble of painting over it.

I haven't been back since, but I fear that whole district was part of the area that has been razed in the last several years for high-rise apartments and the Olympics.

[Deleted]

I had a theory until recently that it would be countries like China that kept the film market going. But I think every Chinese I saw in the tourists areas was taking pictures with a digital camera or phone. The only film shooters I saw on our trip were my brother-and sister-in-law who took along several of those disposable cameras and usually never get around to having the film developed. So it begs the question is there any place where film will continue to be the dominant form or photography? It doesn't look like it.

[nikonbob]

Nov 19, 2008 12:48:10 GMT -5 @wayne said:

I had a theory until recently that it would be countries like China that kept the film market going. But I think every Chinese I saw in the tourists areas was taking pictures with a digital camera or phone. The only film shooters I saw on our trip were my brother-and sister-in-law who took along several of those disposable cameras and usually never get around to having the film developed. So it begs the question is there any place where film will continue to be the dominant form or photography? It doesn't look like it.

Wayne

That seems to be an outlook that is pretty normal/common in old developed industrialized areas, the West. I have heard that many times as a reason that film will be around for a long time. I comes as a shock to most from developed countries that consumers in developing countries tend to skip past old technology and have the latest. We forget that there is no need to evolve like we have had too. It might also be tinged with a certain amount of arrogance in some places and I am not implying that is the case for anyone here.

Bob

[Deleted]

Bob:

What it seems to boil down to now is if a place is so poor they don't have digital cameras, they don't have film cameras either. Urban China is so up to date on the latest technology that it's a little scary when you whink of the power One Billion people will have in the marketplace.

One of the things that really amazed me in china was the cell phones. In the cities everyone seems to have them--although I'm sure that's not the case. Can't say about the rural areas by in Beijing and Shanghai and the surrounding areas you were never out of sight of people talking on cells--even at the Great Wall.

[nikonbob]

The usage of cell phones is likely high in areas you would not think likely as it is usually cheaper to put in a cell system than the old style land lines or even to expand what land lines there already exist. Again yesterdays tech and there is no need to have it or invest in rehabbing what little there is of the old. Yeah, China is definitely a major power in the world today.

Bob

[Deleted]

Stephen:

Your point on movies and 35mm film is excellent. I imagine well over 50 percent of all 35mm film made is used in movies. Of course movies are in the process of switching to digital, too.I think some theaters showed a digital version of the last Star Wars movie.

[PeterW]

Stephen,

Turning to Chinese cameras, I handled one of the Leica copies when a local dealer had one (beyond my price range). It didn't seem anything special, but then I also think that about the screw fit Leicas (no stoning, please).

No stones, just a comment. I have a Zorki S, several Zorki 4s and a Kiev 4A. They all perform very well.

I also have two screw-thread Leicas, a Contax II and a pre-war Kine Exakta. All old technology, but the attraction is not what they do, its the way that they do it.

PeterW

[nikonbob]

"the attraction is not what they do, its the way that they do it." That is well said.

Bob

[ianglean]

I have a Shanghai 58 coming by the end of the month. A friend who regularly visits China was kind enough to get me one. He said that he goes to this place where there are a lot of camera shops where they have a lot of Seagull TLR’s, Shanghai 58’s and other vintage cameras. I was able to use his Shanghai 58 and I’ll try to look for some sample shots.

[Deleted]

I was hoping to run across a Shanghai RF when I was In China last fall but we never got off the tourist beaten paths.