Reiska
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Post by Reiska on Feb 8, 2009 10:55:00 GMT -5
Old Contessa Nettel-folder. I am wondering, what format is this, 5,5cm x 11cm (2,2 x 4,3 inches) it is not familiar to me. I got this from a friend who was carrying out a clear out. Barry is smiling at my ancient Finnglish. The other folder which he found is Hapo 66-E in a very good condition. C-N has some faults in a leatherette. A bit of a leatherette stripe is missing. The other missing part is a "foot" on the door. It has a common Derval shutter and the lens is Conastigmat 1: 6,3 f=13cm and the serial (body) is 430145. The side isn't rusty. The yellow colour is a reflection from a paperholder.
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Feb 8, 2009 20:32:30 GMT -5
Hi Reijo,
Got to admit, this film format has got me stumped. The nearest I can think of is Kodak 116 whch was 2.5 x 4.25 inches. This was once a fairly popular size for Cartes de Visite photographs though the sizes varied lightly.
Maybe your Contessa Nettel was intended for Cartes de Visite, or maybe it was intended for landscape format family group pictures, but I'm guessing.
I'd be interested to hear if you eventually find out what film size it was intended to use. It looks as if you've got it propped up on an old 120 FP4 film box when FP4 was rated at 125 ASA. Does a 120 spool fit?
peterW
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Reiska
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Post by Reiska on Feb 9, 2009 0:04:34 GMT -5
Hej, Wayne 120 spool don't fit. The lenght of that black spool is ~72mm (~65mm/120) ? ( modified: Probably it is 116 or 130 roll film but the frame dimensions are 55 x 110mm and the lenght of the bobbin is 73mm)
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Post by olroy2044 on Feb 9, 2009 2:21:18 GMT -5
Reiska: That does look like a 116 spool. I remember using box cameras in both 120 and 116 sizes (that was one big box camera!) and the spools looked like those. Had those cameras up to a couple of moves ago. Don't know what happened to them. Roy
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Reiska
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Post by Reiska on Feb 9, 2009 2:47:42 GMT -5
You both are right. The film size is 116. What mixed my thoughts, was a narrow frame. I t is about 10mm smaller than in my Nr. 2A Brownie. It is a panoramized Contessa
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Post by paulatukcamera on Feb 9, 2009 17:29:17 GMT -5
Hi Reijo
Been doing some detective work! Not with any positive results. The earliest Zeiss Catalogue I have is dated 1930 and your camera is not listed. The only Nettel is a plate model. Numbers start at 500+
So I looked up McKeowns - Nettel draws a blank with nothing shown like yours. The existance of a Zeiss number must put it after the merger of 1926 and obviously it was discontinued before 1930. Panorama is not listed as a model name.
However McKeowns does say something about the model numbers - "the first half designates the model. A new model increases the last digit by one, so yours looks like a first 430 - if I can find one! The second half indicates the negative size. So yours is 145 and is standard from one model to another"
So 14 is 5 X 7.5cm and the typical lens focal length is 90mm.
I have now looked at all the models he lists and not a single one is a 430! So, apologies for raising your hopes of identification and dating.
Paul
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Feb 9, 2009 19:46:18 GMT -5
Paul:
I'm a little puzled by your posting about Reijo's Contessa-Nettel. Unless you have had separate PMs with him I can't find any reference to Zeiss Ikon in his postings. From what he said I assumed it was a Contessa-Nettel, made before 1926 when that company in Suttgart was still independent and under the control of Dr. August Nagel.
As far as I know, Contessa-Nettel bought all their lenses and shutters from other companies, and Conastigmat was a name used for the lenses on a number of C-N cameras. Maybe it was coined from CONtessa and anASTIGMAT. The Conastigmat lens name does appear on a few early Zeiss Ikon cameras, possibly those taken over from stocks held by Contessa Nettel at the time of the merger in September 1926.
As far as I can gather, though, a lot of the cameras held in stock by Contessa-Nettel, ICA, Goerz and Ernemann, the companies that were merged to form Zeiss Ikon, and which Zeiss Ikon didn't want to continue with because they would be self-competing, were sold off to dealers.
It took Zeiss Ikon nearly two years to get all the models from the four companies sorted out. They had nearly 150 different models to deal with.
In the UK, Wallace Heaton, City Sale and Exchange and Westminster Photographic Exchange had quite a few which were sold under their own-brand names of Zodel, Salex and Westex respectively. You can find a lot of them in their adverts in Amateur Photographer from about 1928 to 1932-33.
I don't have my reference information to hand, but as far as I remember the folding cameras on which the lens standard slid along rails on the baseboard which Zeiss Ikon continued were plate cameras. The ex-Contessa-Nettel factory in Stuttgart became the home of Zeiss Ikon folding roll-film cameras, concentrating on the self-erecting Ikonta and its derivatives. Maybe Zeiss Ikon saw the writing on the wall for plate cameras.
Design work on the first Ikonta was started before the merger but because of the reorganisation the camera was not ready to launch with stocks available for dealers until 1928. I have an early 1928 model in need of cosmetic attention.
But there I go, waffling on and digressing again!
Reijo: To help clear up a point, do the words Zeiss Ikon and a model number (usually three figures followed by a slash and two more figures like XXX/XX) appear anywhere on the camera, or just the name Contessa-Nettel anywhere else as well as on the lens?
peterW
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 10, 2009 5:46:35 GMT -5
It looks like a Corarette to me , obviously a basic model (without rise and fall or wire frame finder), and seems reasonable to assume it is a C-N rather than a ZI release (ZI also sold them after merger) considering its lens and also seeing how it has Contessa Nettel written on the front. they made them in 6x9 as well as 6.5x11 (or 4.25"x2.5" if you prefer), in addition, some were made to take plate film apparently.
you can see on the carriage that it has the four ridges (that would likely measure for the 6.5cm film) to guide the film and no doubt have given it ample guide to support it making it more panoramic of sorts (perhaps they felt it needed the extra support to maintain film flatness. its so close to being able to fit 120 film i would give it a try (with making spacers for the spools of course) even it meant sticking some black tape along the mask to gain a extra mm or two.
i quite like that camera, it really lends it self to be easily adapted (a bit more so than some others of this format) to use 120 film for a pano picture.
lovely camera, doesnt look in bad nik either considering its age
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Reiska
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Post by Reiska on Feb 10, 2009 15:28:47 GMT -5
Thank you, folks. I can read again. On the strap is written Cocarette II/0. Every now and then my memory comes back bit by bit. Here they are side by side, Cocarette II/0 and Cocarette 0.
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Feb 10, 2009 16:23:17 GMT -5
Reijo,
Glad that's sorted out. On the Cocarette II/0 where you have a piece of leatherette missing down one side edge, have you got some leatherette to replace it?
If not I have a few small offcuts of leatherette with a grain that looks about right for that camera. I may not have a piece quite long enough to do it in one run, I'm not sure. Let me know the length needed. If you haven't got any, send me your snail mail address in a PM and I'll put a piece in the post to you. You should be able to trim it to size with a scalpel or a craft knife with a new blade and a steel rule. Ordinary contact adhesive will stick it down OK because you shouldn't need to lift it up again.
Let me know.
Regards
peterW
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Post by paulatukcamera on Feb 10, 2009 16:47:38 GMT -5
Proving Peter that you are absolutely right about the fact that I shouldn't comment if I don't have adequate knowledge! (I genuinely thought the 430 was the first part of a Zeiss number so making it post 1926)
I'll slink back to the 1960s!
(At least I am probably the only one on here with expertise in -and a collection of - Samoca, Montanus & Beauty cameras!)
Paul
PS. Reijo - Just pulled out the 1930 Zeiss Ikon catalogue again. This time with a better picture, I must say the Zeiss Ikon version looks almost identical to yours, , bar the ZI logo stamped on the top and two locking baseboard screws.
There are four cheaper ranges then what I take to be your model as continued and updated by Zeiss Ikon
(All models fitted with "Dervalverschlub")
Nr 514/17 fur 6 Aufnahmen 8 X 10,5 cm
A mit frontar 1:9 f=14cm RM70
The nearest equivalent to yours probably is: E mit Novar Anastigmat 1:6.3 f=12.5cm RM 76
The next up in the range is: 514/6 fur Aufnahmen 8 X 14cm B mit Periscop 1:11 f=15cm RM83 E mit Novar-Anastigmat 1:6.8 f=15cm RM 91
The opposite page shows a much modernised "Cocarette" with that name inscribed in the leather and with a Compur Shutter and with a Tessar lens costing RM118, though the Derval Novar combination is only RM63! (Model 519/15)
If it is any use, I can scan the whole page in for you
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Feb 13, 2009 15:28:46 GMT -5
Reijo,
There's a strip offcut of leatherette in the post to you. Hope it's enough to do the job.
regards, peterW
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Reiska
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Post by Reiska on Feb 13, 2009 17:05:58 GMT -5
"Eat thriftily clay, said the papa-frog to his son." Thank you, Peter!
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Reiska
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Post by Reiska on Feb 14, 2009 6:39:34 GMT -5
My server is down. I hope temporarily.
On the air again.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 14, 2009 10:54:16 GMT -5
uh! i am lost! an inside joke that i dont know about? or a common one that i am still twently years behind in catching up you will have to explain that one! crikey have i got some learning and reading to catch up on--Shakespear, Aristotal or Enid Blyton Paul i think you should keep at it, heaps fun seeing the thinking and mystery unfold from your eyes, (i have been there before, and no doubt will be again, nobody knows all) no one here makes fun or cares, so go for it, and regardless, not that you may of known but it was interesting hearing about the snippets from the ol ziess catalogue. but hey, what do i win, I guessed what it was first uh! actually i think we should have regualar mystery cameras to guess and find--heaps fun--but then i am amused easy just dont make them Samoca, Montanus & Beauty cameras because i have no idea what they are, they sound like there from from an Enid Blyton book as well, or maybe a magazine my daughter would read--if i let her LOLOL..hmm still i find them hidden in her room so that counts for nothing haha...oh also no 126 SLR or Nikons oh ok if you must you can have nikons...just so long as you explain every anoying detail and than explain every problem and detail with getting different nikon lenses to work on the various models...jeepers i am already nikon worn out haha
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