photax
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Post by photax on Jul 5, 2010 14:54:21 GMT -5
Hi ! I found this 6x6 folder at a fleamarket on sunday: A Voigtländer Perkeo II from 1951 with a Voigtländer Color-Skopar 3.5/80 lens in a Prontor-S shutter. It is in near mint condition and came with the bag. The seller said the camera is defective, because the shutter does not work. So I bought this one, together with ten packages of Agfa Isopan stereo glass plates ( containing ca.100 stereo-negative images from the 1940`s ) for the equivalent of 8.- USD. At home I opened the camera and found out, that the shutter of this model could only been released, if you first turn the roll ( for winding up ) left beside the film spool ( pic. 2 ), that means, this camera is only working with a loaded film. The camera works properly at all speeds, even the 1 sec. ;D “Defective” is always a good background for price negotiation. If you come around this model, you know what to do… MIK
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Post by herron on Jul 5, 2010 16:49:21 GMT -5
Nice find!
I love those old Voigtlander folders.
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Jul 5, 2010 16:59:38 GMT -5
Very nice find, MIK, and a bargain. There are a few other cameras that can fool you like this. Some small 35mm cameras, like some models of Retina, are designed so that the shutter won't release until you wind on with a film in place. The trick for testing them is to push the film transport sprockets round with your finger as you wind on. You can sometimes hear a slight click as the interlock comes free. It's best not to do this in front of the seller. There might be another time. At a slightly lower level I once picked up a near mint Kodak all-metal film-pack box camera for 50 pence at a flea market. At the time I didn't know that Kodak made a flim-pack box camera but I saw that there was no wind-on knob for film, and that there was a slot in the top to pull up the paper interleaving between the sheets of film. I guessed it was for film packs, but asked the seller, "How do you wind on the film?" He looked for the knob, shrugged and said he didn't know. He said he thought it might be a dealer's dummy display model. This sort of thing isn't cheating. You are benefitting from your experience. The old saying Caveat Emptor, or let the buyer beware, also applies in reverse, particularly in flea markets. Caveat Venditor, or let the seller beware. Remember, it takes two to make a bargain - but only one gets it. The stereo glass plates from the 1940s were a fine bonus. Have you had a chance to look at any of the images? There may be some gems of social history from the Anschluss period. PeterW
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Post by nikonbob on Jul 5, 2010 20:37:45 GMT -5
OK, I give up. You have some really good flea markets over there. I never run into this stuff locally with any great regularity. A very nice find. I agree with Peter in that it is not the buyer's job to educate a seller about his wares, due diligence is required of both buyer and seller.
Bob
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Post by pompiere on Jul 6, 2010 6:20:41 GMT -5
I would have some simpathy if the seller has inherited the object and is truely ignorant of the value. If it is a regular vender, then it is up to them to know what they are selling. Usually they are just trying to make a little profit, so if they bought a Leica for $10 and sold it for $15, they did okay.
Nice Voigtlander, MIK. It looks like a Vito II's big brother.
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Jul 6, 2010 9:39:21 GMT -5
Ron,
I don't know what sort of profit margin traders look for in the US, but UK market and flea market dealers want a lot more profit than that.
They very seldom buy items in ones and twos. Most of their goods come from auctions or house clearances. Someone dies, and the people who inherit the house and goods just want the house. They call in one of the house clearance dealers who will make an offer for everything. If it is accepted he will clear the house, garage, garden sheds, the lot.
At his asking prices in a flea market he will look for at least 100% mark-up, quite often 200% on what he estimates the thing cost him.
This allows him haggling room with the general public from whom he will, reluctantly of course, accept about 20% off his first asking price.
To specialist dealers, or to collectors he knows and who have bought stuff from him before he will generally give up to 50% discount on his asking price, particularly if they buy three or four items. No guarantees, no returns, take it as seen and examined. Sometimes he will keep stuff "under the stall" for regular buyers.
Most of the general dealers who I know well have a stall at two or three markets a week and want to keep their stock changing to avoid it getting "stale", so once they have made their 100% mark-up on what they gave for a house clearance they knock the rest out to regular buyers at give-away price or send it to a collective-type "junk" auction for whatever it fetches.
Contrary to what some people think, the market dealers who I've got to know quite well don't bother about selling on e-bay. Packing stuff and posting it is just too much hassle.
Unfortunately, the supply of cameras and other photo gear seems to have dried up locally, except for cheap plastic 110 or 126 cameras. Time was, five or six years ago, when I seldom came home from one of the larger flea markets or car boot sales with fewer than half a dozen decent cameras.
PeterW
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Post by nikonbob on Jul 6, 2010 11:06:15 GMT -5
Ron
I would agree that in certain cases I would be inclined to go easy on the seller. OTH have you ever told somebody that their precious inherited camera, that they think is worth a large sum, is basically a pile of junk because it has numerous defects and is basically inoperative. They won't thank you for that either.
Bob
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Post by pompiere on Jul 6, 2010 23:21:45 GMT -5
Peter, I didn't mean to imply that a 50% markup was the norm, but that as long as they made an acceptable return on their investment, then the seller wasn't as concerned about selling for the highest possible prices. As you said, there just isn't the time to sort and sell all the individual items.
Bob, I try to be diplomatic when someone has something that isn't worth near what they are asking. If it is someone that I know, I'll try to explain why it isn't worth as much. Otherwise, I'll just say something like " I'll think about it" or "It's not what I'm looking for".
Ron
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Post by nikonbob on Jul 7, 2010 6:11:06 GMT -5
Ron
I agree about being diplomatic and would not phrase it the same way I wrote it, normally that is. Even trying to explain it diplomatically that it is not worth it to somebody you know may not get you any thanks.
Bob
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photax
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Post by photax on Jul 7, 2010 13:46:22 GMT -5
Hi ! There are about 10 big flea markets within a radius of 10 - 50km every weekend, where you can find professional and private sellers. Many of them are from the Czech Republic, Slovakia, or Hungary. You can reach all three countries in one hour, or less. Here are my personal hints for being effective at a flea market: If you visit the market early ( 5h in the morning ) you get the chance to find cheap items. At this time the sellers themselves are going shopping. This is not my personal time at the weekend. Or you visit the market at noon, at this time you get also the chance buying cheap, because many of the sellers do not want to take home the whole stuff. Things getting cheaper, if the weather conditions are very hot ( like last weekend ), or very cold, or raining. Few visitors and many of the sellers just want to get the money in for the stall rent and go home. Very important: never go there with you best clothes, if you are wearing a suit and necktie, I promise, you will pay double. Never show too much interest for the special item you want. I take two or three items I don’t want to buy and pick up the item I like casually. Saying : What is the price for this “thing” ? is much better than asking : How much is this very rare limited edition camera I`ve seen at a museum last week ? Some years ago I found a unique Austrian 1910 cardboard plate box camera at the size of a cigarette-box ( a so called schoolboy camera, not many of them survived ). The seller said: I also don’t know what this thing should be, but if you like it you can take it home for 1,50. I did. Or you ask: What kind of camera is this ? If the seller tells you the whole history of it, he will also know the value. If he says: I don’t know I cant even open it, maybe this will become an interesting buy. There is always a supply and demand for articles of any kind. If there is no demand for boxes full of historic glass plates, you can get them for cents. If there are 15 people asking for these, you probably will pay 30 Dollars. Peter, I looked at the negatives: Lot of portraits ( mostly in uniform ), idyllic landscapes and a lot of flags ( the ugly ones )… If a friend asks me about the value of inherited mass produced photo stuff, I also prefer the diplomatic version, like “ Keep it as a memory of your grandfather “, or something like that. MIK
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Post by John Parry on Jul 7, 2010 15:53:48 GMT -5
Mik
Sadly, 5 o'clock in the morning is something that happens to other people. I know it exists theoretically, but like belief in ghosts, I'll believe it when I see it...
Regards - John
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Jul 7, 2010 18:38:47 GMT -5
John,
From an ex-sailor? Tell fibs like that and you'll be on morning watch for a week.
PeterW
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mickeyobe
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Post by mickeyobe on Jul 7, 2010 20:04:12 GMT -5
John,
To only see the sun set and never see it rise. Aren't you at all curious?
Mickey
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photax
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Post by photax on Jul 25, 2010 9:07:20 GMT -5
Hi ! Another flea-market today, same story, new camera: Voigtländer Vito II for 35mm film with Color Skopar 1:3.5/50, 1950. As Ron said: The little brother. Another model working with loaded film only. Offered for equalling 25.-, bought for 12.-. The shutter had not been working in front of the seller, but is working properly at home ;D. MIK
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Post by pompiere on Jul 25, 2010 14:58:10 GMT -5
MIK,
The Vito II was my first 35mm camera, exactly like the one you have pictured. My dad had given it to me when I was a teenager, but I gave it back when I got my SR-T 200 for high school graduation. Many years later, when I discovered the fun of collecting old cameras, I asked my dad about the Vito, but it had been destroyed when his basement was flooded. Some day, I hope to have another one, hopefully for a price as good as yours.
Ron
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