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Post by herron on Jul 21, 2012 11:37:22 GMT -5
Wait a moment ... the prices of film cameras are dropping because film is dead ? Where is the connection ? I think, first of all, we have to make a difference between 2nd hand/used and vintage/antique. If something is a few years old, the price is naturally dropping ... but that's not an issue of digital or analog. When I bought my GH1 ( new and just released ), I paid 150.000 Yen for it ( because I really wanted it at that time ). Less than two years later, I could get a second GH1 for just 20.000 Yen in nearly new condition. So, I honestly think, that the prices of digital equipment are dropping even faster than in the analog world. I can find not even five years old digital cameras here in junk boxes of the camera shops for less than $ 5, but a still working folder or TLR from the 50s or 60s still sells for $ 100-200. But that's because there actually isn't any connection between the collectable and its usage. If somebody collects stamps, he mostly does not want to glue them on a letter too, doesn't he ? I agree with Berndt. Prices of everyday old analog cameras are dropping...but not the collectable ones, the ones that people are seeking because of something more than usable value. And digital prices are dropping faster...and you can't even find some of the older digitals anywhere but the trash Film as a high-volume commercial product is nearly dead, true, but I don't think it will ever disappear entirely. Like the days of exposing old glass plates, there are too many folks who enjoy the history attached to it, and who still enjoy fooling around with it. Of course, most of them are my age, and the younger ones don't have a clue - or care. But still... Things change, but collectors? Collectors are a breed apart. My grandfather refused to believe man had been to the moon. His father refused to believe men would ever fly. My grandkids have never known a day without TV, video games and i-Phones. Who knows what their grandkids will think of that? One thing is certain, however, someone, somewhere will be collecting them.  |
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hansz
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Hans
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Post by hansz on Jul 21, 2012 13:32:02 GMT -5
Berndt, Herron and others to agree with what has been said about average users and collectors, but do you consider the Icarex a collectors item? 5 years ago I could get them for € 10 - 20 a piece easily. Today € 50 or more has to be paid, even with the Color-Pantar... Even more strange, the BM types fetch the same price, and I don't see many adapters for this bayonet.
2 Weeks ago history came back to me, seeing a young couple work with a wooden camera on paper as film. They were from the local photo and film academy and were experimenting with techniques. I hope I can unearth the photo I took. (with my smart phone arghh...)
In the student scene here 6x6 B&W is hot. Also diapositive film is used and developed as negative film. I believe it's called 'crossed' (?) giving weird colours they love.
So, there are some trends, but I agree fully they are niche and certainly could not save Kodak:-)
Hans
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Post by herron on Jul 21, 2012 16:10:19 GMT -5
Berndt, Herron and others to agree with what has been said about average users and collectors, but do you consider the Icarex a collectors item? 5 years ago I could get them for € 10 - 20 a piece easily. Today € 50 or more has to be paid, even with the Color-Pantar... Even more strange, the BM types fetch the same price, and I don't see many adapters for this bayonet. 2 Weeks ago history came back to me, seeing a young couple work with a wooden camera on paper as film. They were from the local photo and film academy and were experimenting with techniques. I hope I can unearth the photo I took. (with my smart phone arghh...) In the student scene here 6x6 B&W is hot. Also diapositive film is used and developed as negative film. I believe it's called 'crossed' (?) giving weird colours they love. So, there are some trends, but I agree fully they are niche and certainly could not save Kodak:-) Hans Hans - Is an Icarex a collectors item? To collectors of Icarex it is. Is a Mamiya 35mm (any model) a collectors item? I thought so, and so do the more than 1,000 followers of my forum about them. Collecting has little to do with expense (until you start collecting Bentley's or something similar), but with passion. I can be passionate about my curved-nameplate Mamiya Prismat. It took me years to find one, and it's taken years to make it operational again - and now I'm quietly seeking a second one (so I have spare parts)...but is it something most camera-philes would covet? Probably not. It's the young kids, experimenting with old techniques, who will keep the old ways of photography alive. Along the way, they'll spur some renewed interest in old film cameras...and who knows which ones? Personally, I think it's grand. I hope I'm still around to witness the next resurgence of film, and the caameras that made history.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2012 16:36:12 GMT -5
We continually hear the 'digital isn't permanent" argument--that a few years down the road we won't be able to view our digital pictures but film is forever. I don't know how many variations of digital image storage we've already been through and I can still read every image I have ever stored digitally. The same rules apply to digital that applied to negatives and slides. Store in a cool dark place with controlled humidity and you'll be fine. Now if you store ALL you images on one computer or one set of DVDs or whatever, there might come a day when they get ruined for one reason or another. But negatives have the same weakness. And it's a lot easier to make backup copies of digital images and store them in different places than it is to do the same thing with negatives.
There will always be camera collectors but if you want to collect, do it for the right reasons--because you admire the history, mechanics and workmanship of film cameras--because the process of developing and printing the images is a challenge. Don't collect with the idea that what you collect now will keep food on the table 50 years from now because it won't in most instances. There are actually quite a few of us now, collecting the cameras we couldn't afford then there were new. We are mostly in the same general age group. And when we are gone, most of those cameras will disappear with us. And when the last generation that used film is gone, the number of film collectors will be small indeed.
Don't kid yourself. The young people who shoot all their pictures with their cell phones aren't going to suddenly switch to film when they get older. That's like saying the people who used 35mm when they were young would switch to 4x5 Speed Graphics when they are older because they will get higher quality images.
Our generation is fascinated with the photographic PROCESS. Young digital users don't care about the process. All they care about is getting a photo clear enough to post on line to show their friends what they have been doing. There may be a few young people who will eventually want to learn more about the "olden days" in photography but trust me, it will be a tiny number of people.
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Post by nikonbob on Jul 22, 2012 6:28:22 GMT -5
Wayne
Hard to dispute your view.
Bob
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Post by vintageslrs on Jul 22, 2012 9:57:34 GMT -5
Collectors collect either because they love the items or they are fascinated with the workmanship or the "old" processes.
Will there continue to be collectors once us older folks are gone--yes I think so. Not in the same volume but there will always be some.
If Wayne is correct then in the future, there will be more old cameras and less collectors. Prices will be lowered then.
It is curious that the cameras I watch (film SLR's from the 60's through the '80's ) are going up in value compared to just a few years ago. I'm not quite sure why? And maybe in the future as we pass on----that trend will reverse.
But as a true collector (and user) I don't really care. It is not an investment. It is a passion. I have them because I love them. The value is immaterial. And when I'm gone I'd like to think they go to someone who cares about them. But if they don't will it matter to me--I doubt it---LOL.
Bob
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Post by Randy on Jul 22, 2012 11:41:05 GMT -5
My son is 30 years young, and he collects just like me.
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Post by vintageslrs on Jul 22, 2012 13:32:42 GMT -5
Alright!
A chip off the old block!
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Post by grenouille on Jul 22, 2012 13:47:05 GMT -5
My son has indicated to me that once he is properly settled and has his own home, he would like evantually to take over my collection.
I hope he will slowly influence his son on the love of photography and camera collection so what I have will last at least 3 generation.
Nope, have never thought of making money out of my collection, have been collecting for almost 50 years and have never sold a camera.
Hye
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Post by vintageslrs on Jul 22, 2012 15:30:03 GMT -5
Hye
It is very nice that your son has expressed that desire and perhaps his son will also!
You must have done something right.
Bob
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Berndt
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Post by Berndt on Jul 23, 2012 8:08:26 GMT -5
Not enjoyable to agree with that, Wayne ... but yes, I have to  However, I do have the feeling, that I will still be able to use film until the end of MY days here on earth and that's all, what counts for me  A few years ago, I really thought, film will die soon, but "the condemned live longer" ... if that's the right translation into English. We only look at Kodak, but it is a fact, that more new films have been released during the last two years than films have become discontinued. App. 50 different film types are still available in all kind of formats and even long time ago abandoned formats like 127 or 110 are back on stage ( honestly, I never ever thought, that this would happen to 110 film ). So ... I also don't think, that the majority will return to film, but I also don't thing, that film will entirely disappear so soon. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 15:01:25 GMT -5
Five years ago I would have bet film would be very popular for at least another 15 years. That was based on the fact that you still had to know quite a bit about computers to get good digital prints. But the digital technology moved forward a lot faster than I anticipated.
Today you can walk into a drug store, slip you memory card into a machine, choose the images you want to print as well as cropping and size and get finished prints in an hour or less. From what I see in stores today, I think that in another five years it will require some searching to find a local film processor and film will be limited to a very few types.
W.
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Post by Randy on Jul 23, 2012 16:37:43 GMT -5
They have been saying the right kind of solar storm could wipe out all electronics, ha....we will be the only ones able to take photos then. (tongue in cheek)
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Berndt
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Post by Berndt on Jul 24, 2012 9:57:55 GMT -5
I would have nothing to fear then ;D |
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Jul 24, 2012 14:28:35 GMT -5
They have been saying the right kind of solar storm could wipe out all electronics, ha....we will be the only ones able to take photos then. (tongue in cheek) The bad news is that there is a bacterium which has recently mutated and it now feeds and destroys film. The good news is that the world is going to end anyway, so there won't be anyone left to worry about it.  |
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