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Post by genazzano on Sept 24, 2014 13:03:05 GMT -5
Thank you, Stephen. I learned a lot from just one of your information-dense posts.
David
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 24, 2014 15:25:51 GMT -5
Mentioning the film "The Fox Hunt", Alex Korda's lost musical colour full length cartoon, I looked on the net in case more information has surfaced, and it has..... a bit....
Directed By Anthony Gross, Hector Hoppin, Laszlo Meitner. Produced By Alexander Korda. Animated By Anthony Gross, Hector Hoppin, Laszlo Meitner, Kathleen Murphy, Carl Giles.,
Music: Mischa Spoliansky.
Film made by Denning Films at Denham Studios, started in 1937 and stopped finally in 1943. Full length colour cartoon in full Technicolor.
The Carl Giles is was the famous newspaper cartoonist "Giles"
The surviving scraps are on 8mm film, no negatives survived in the flooded Denham archives.
The film is a musical Fox hunt, with animated cars, steam engines and other crazy characters being outwitted by the Fox. It integrated the music very carefully, and used the border of the image to decorate each scene.
At one point in the late 70's David Hand, Disney's producer of Snow White offered to try to complete and restore the film at Disney, but too little had survived, and the project lapsed. In the 1940's, after leaving Disney, David Hand worked in the UK making cartoons for the J.A. Rank Organisation at Cookham Studios, making Animal Land and Ginger Nuts Cartoons. He later went back to Disney, after settling differences with Walt Disney.
Stephen
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 24, 2014 16:07:01 GMT -5
And quite amazingly, the shortened version made for United Artists has been found, once listed as "Missing, believed Lost", by the British Film Institute. Distinctively different from any Hollywood cartoon film in design and music. The longer version is different in layout, having borders in some scenes.
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Post by philbirch on Sept 24, 2014 17:52:29 GMT -5
Autochrome - a rival - used the starch method, that I do know, the grains were coloured, depending on the batch, orange, purple and green or orange, blue and green etc. which looked lovely as slides but went to crap when they had to make colour plates from it. Same as Dufay when it too was duplicated. The problem with Autochrome was because of the density of the starch grains, the film was slower. Dufay used, like you said, a matrix of sorts filled with dye not starch. Because of this, the film was much faster than Autochrome. In terms of megapixels Autochrome was king with about 8 million starch grains to the square inch whereas Dufay had about one million dyecells to their square inch.
A good example of an inferior process beating the better one on the market (Beta/VHS, BSB/Sky etc)
I've actually seen a Dufay 9.5 film and it was amazing, long before Kodachrome they had colour. I dont remember the screen quality but I was mesmerised by the sight of 1920's family scenes in colour.
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Post by daveh on Sept 25, 2014 1:17:15 GMT -5
I was racking my brains to recall the film I had seen with at least some filmed in Dufaycolor. I found it later - it was a Will Hay film, Radio Parade of 1935. The next thing I need to work out is why I had remembered it. Maybe some was shown as an example of the process on a BBC2 (or similar) programme.
In terms of which process holds sway, there is usually one factor that decides things. Sometimes it's technological superiority, sometimes it's cost, but there again sometimes it's just that one company has more "clout".
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 25, 2014 7:54:06 GMT -5
Radio Parade has been shown on the BBC since the 1970's with the colour partly restored.
Sir John Mills found the remains whilst filming a documentary about Denham Studios, he asked for access to the abandoned film vault, and was shocked to find it flooded out. London Films had abandoned it in the 1950's.
The BBC in theory rented the store rooms, but never opened them up fully, just using space to store sets. Rank had used Denham after the war, but only used the laboratory to print Technicolor films.
Dufay supplied Two reels of colour film to Radio Parade, and just as with Hollywood added the colour to just the last musical numbers, the rest of the film was in B/White. The cinema copies were on a low contrast Dufay print, several dozen were made, plus some B/white only versions that were cheaper to hire out.
The design of the whole film was for colour filming, but costs drove the plan to be abandoned. Several scences linger on floral displays and what are obviously sets in full colour rig with intense lighting.
The camera used was a standard cine GB 35mm, fitted with a TTH lens.
In comparison Dr Kalmus used a very complex three film Technicolor cameras with beam splitters to get three b/white colour recording films, used to make an inked matrix that was pressure printed with ink onto plain gelatine film.
This complexity gave cheap prints at the vast cost to the camera and processing of the master copy.
It also gave amazing control of the colours, usually used in rather garish tones at first to show off the process.
Lumiere Autochrome was the base of the Dufay process, they both used starch but in a dye layer that was cut away in lines of grooves for each primary colour in Dufay, leaving lines of sensitive emulsion dyed to each primary.
This meant a simple film to handle, in a simple camera, but very expensive prints to go to the cinemas.
In contrast Dr Kalmus used extremely complex cameras, multi films and complex printing, but got cheaper copies that did not fade or shrink badly.
Technicolor could also print other processes like Multicolor, Cinecolor, Kodacolor or Ektacolor with equal ease.
Cinecolor was a 2 colour process that dyed the film, used two emulsions, and had a viable print film for cinemas. Used mainly for cheaper westerns and adventure films. They invented a three color film in the 1940's but it never rivalled Technicolor, appealing only to cheaper makers in Hollywood.
The only main rival prewar was UFA's Agfacolour which used plain cameras, costly film, and low contrast expensive film to print. Kodak developed Ekta to the same principles. But Technicolor printed them in practice as they had the best printing process.
In the Wiki entry for Dufay there are references to the surviving other examples including a film about harvest time, and a film of Norwich.
Dufay mainly failed due to the war, it stopped all work to turn to plastics used in armaments.
Dufay got involved with other plastics in the war and turned in the Late 40's to toys, Trix Railways, and Rosebud Dolls etc. They quietly stopped the still films about 1954/55 period. The film division was run by the printers and papers makers Spicers, who had built the complex film making machines in the 1930's.
There must be hundreds of amateur colour Dufay films out there in lofts and storage, they were mass produced, the biggest maker at the time.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 25, 2014 8:07:12 GMT -5
Also never properly explained in references to Dufay was why the lines did not show on the screen, they were printed askew to the film, resulting in a TV picture like effect, where each colour frame was staggered slightly on each colour groove.
In other words, no two sequential frames lined up the colour matrix, so blur covers up the effect of the masking, a very clever trick.
In addition each groove for each primary was at a different angle, imagine the complexity of the grooving machines.
The still film had a regular matrix, far easier to make.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 25, 2014 19:03:34 GMT -5
Back to the Advocate, far to costly to powder coat, first quote over £70, plus preparation. So as stove enamel is expensive as it has to be bought in large amounts, the best answer is ordinary enamel over an oxide undercoat, and then baked for several hours to harden it.
Humbrol enamel works well especially as they do a wide range of colours in small cans, enabling mixing a good ivory finish.
I build live steam engines and have found the paint to be tough once baked. The body needs a coat of satin black inside and over the light trap edges as well. This can be standard cellulose laquer, which also bakes well.
All the mechanical functions are working now, the interlock spring was replaced with one made from 12thou nickel plated steel Guitar wire.
The speeds are spot on, and the shutter near silent. Before it is stripped down to paint I will run a couple of films through it to assess the lens.
Stephen.
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Post by philbirch on Sept 26, 2014 4:11:17 GMT -5
Powder coating costs about £20 at a place near myself. They want no paint or plastic, just bare metal. I had a small bunch of cameras painted black, about a year ago, the top plates and bottom plates £20 for the bunch - mind I had to wait until they were coating something else the same colour or it may have been £35. Prepping the metal is no problem, they just want it cleaned with acetone or naptha and with a slight key - a light going over with 200 grit paper.
But, it seems like you have got this covered. Please explain how you bake Humbrol enamel. I take it that this is the stuff that model makers use. Would it be hard enough to withstand day to day knocks and scrapes on a camera? Painting over the original metal even after keying and using undercoat can still rub or knock off the paint.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 27, 2014 10:19:26 GMT -5
The gloss Humbrol paint is very hard once baked, it is airbrushed in thin layers over grey or red oxide cellulose car body primer, air dried between many coats. Then baked at about 180f for about 8 hours. Humbrol can be diluted for spraying with white spirit or stronger cellulose thinners, which speed up the drying.
Once baked hard it can be rubbed down with paint restorer liquid to remove any marks and give an even high gloss. It is durable enough to use with hot steam etc., on steam engines.
The problem with powder and high temperature paint for engines, is getting an ivory finish. Humbrol do white, yellows, creams, black and grey, so a mix can be done to an exact match.
Technically high temperature engine enamel or brake caliper paint would work, they bake at about 400c, but a restricted colour range.
Matt black is covered by exhaust paint which is baked at about 600C, but risks melting the aluminium body, and restricted colour range!
The interior is best with Cellulose satin black, which after baking hard is very durable.
In the end, the Advocate is hardly going to face a lot of handling, so it should be OK with low baked paint.
Real baked enamel paint used a high resin paint, lots of tough additives and fillers, to give a high build dipping or one coat paint.
True enamel is a paste of glass and resin that is burnt off in a high temperature oven that destroys the resin, but leaves a glass finish.
Stephen
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Post by philbirch on Sept 27, 2014 16:59:11 GMT -5
Thanks for that info, looks like I'm going to have to get an airbrush, or stick with powder coating. Whichever is cheaper.
Can you get enamel in an aerosol?
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 27, 2014 17:22:06 GMT -5
Thanks for that info, looks like I'm going to have to get an airbrush, or stick with powder coating. Whichever is cheaper. Can you get enamel in an aerosol? Most paints are enamel, synthetic enamel, and the major colours are done in aerosols. Traditional car paint is the same base but very active thinners, and are all in aerosol cans. Other makes of enamel are Plastikote, and they do aerosols or bottles(they will bake hard). For US readers Testors do enamel paint. A good basic airbrush is about £20 from Ebay, and a small compressor from about £49 or so. The most basic and cheap airbrushes at £10 or less are really a bit crude, barely able to be better than the aerosol. The £20 types are all metal, and designed for all types of thinned paint or ink, or water based paints. Most are Chinese sourced and work well, but need a bit of practice first to get the best finishes. A more expensive one would not g/tee a better finish, but may have a better metal finish, and be able to make more adjustments. Cleaning is vital, they all must be spotless to work well, without splutter etc. The simpler compressors have no airtank, they vibrate a twin valve pump. More expensive compressors have storage tanks to even out the flow, and handle sprayguns and airtools. You may find a complete set, airbrush/ spraygun in a package at a reduced price, but be careful the gun may be the heavier car type, whereas for delicate work an airbrush is better. Any other advice you need just ask, long experience in profesional model engineering....
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Post by philbirch on Sept 27, 2014 23:28:13 GMT -5
Thanks Stephen, I used to scratch build plastic and wood models for many years for use in films and animation (my own), and I learned the difference between a cheap and an expensive brush very early on. Very important - but thanks for reminding me, I really would have gone for a cheap one.
Your advice on paint is very useful, I've kind of switched over to water based acrylics in recent years, easy to clean, no mess, fast drying and its good for brushing as it dries with no brush marks, but for cameras its useless. Flaky
Plastikote aerosols are readily available for me perhaps I shall go down this route. Car paint too eh? That opens up a ship load of possibilities. A British Racing Green Periflex...
Clarify please, Humbrol baked at 180 degrees F, everything else you quote is in C, just confirm please.
Many thanks for this excellent advice.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Sept 28, 2014 7:10:58 GMT -5
Yes about 180f, under the boiling point of water, otherwise it risks bubbling, the paint should be touch dry first. Domestic ovens may be able to maintain the temp, test with thermometer. I use a bench top halogen fan oven, it has de frost position at about 180f.
You may have a radiator than is in that range, or a wooden box with ordinary mains lamps can reach the right range, but need experiment to get the temperature, using a lamp dimmer switch. Never run unattended, of course. Yes acrylics are fine for a water based paint, but are useless for hard gloss, unless the specialist cyano based car paints, almost impossible to use at home.
Apart from special stove enamels, cellulose car paint, more correctly termed synthetic coach enamel, is the hardest finish if baked. The term enamel is very miss leading, most paints in gloss try to be like a glass enamel, that is why the term is used.
There is little difference between car paint and humbrol, just the exact resins and fillers.
The thinners are another matter, any paint thinned with high octane cellulose thinners will not over spray a coat of enamel applied with spirit. Spirit paint may be sprayed over cellulose, and varnishes often are. But most spirit enamel will take cellulose thinners to spray, but remain weak to take more cellulose on top of them.
Strong thinners dissolve the surface as the spray applies the paint, this is why car paint grips in thin layers.
Trouble is that regulators are trying to ban high octane thinners, and promoting acrylics, which do have some stronger versions, but are never as good.
A unique paint is Floquil from Testors, it is a plain matt paint dissolved in xylene, to which varnishes are added to give gloss etc. It was designed for models, but is used for cameras etc. Unfortunatly it is banned in the EU, due to the xylene, although it is availble for restoration uses over previously used Floquil.
It is feely available in the States ....so far.....and by carrier delivery from specialist sellers in the UK, as all paint is banned from the Post now, in theory even acrylic paint.
Testors enamel, and Humbrol,(and Revell), are interchangeable. Floquil is not, it only mixes with itself.
Plasticote is enamel, but is usually less pigmented than Humbrol.
Rustin's paint is good for gloss and matt black in spirit based enamel, also they do a very good cellulose gloss varnish, meant for brass and silver metal protection. It dries hard without baking, having no pigment or fillers to cure. Hope this helps,
Stephen.
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Post by philbirch on Sept 28, 2014 12:04:02 GMT -5
More than enough help to get me on my way Stephen. Thanks! I'm sure I've seen a halogen oven in our QVC clearance shop, pretty cheap too.
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