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Post by lonestr on Apr 20, 2015 14:42:09 GMT -5
Hi, I'm Lonestr and I'm from San Antonio, Texas. I've been retired for a few years now. I've traveled the world and went out as a top executive from the humbling beginnings of sweeping floors out of high school with the only company I've ever worked for. I recently emptied out a long time storage rental and found a vintage voigtlander bergheil 6.5x9 folding plate camera that belonged to my grandmother. I'm an accomplished 35mm photographer(Contax 159MM) and having found this camera, I'm determined to take up the bergheil and enjoy shooting film in this format. I do have a slight problem, my bergheil has no lens. I'm hoping I can get expert advice from you fine knowledgeable shutterbugs in this forum.
On a sad note, I found out from my sister how the lens became missing. One of our brothers lifted the lens and sold it for a nice profitable sum. I referenced an old photo of my grandma holding the camera and managed to see the lens. It appears to be a Heliar Compur. I couldn't see the smaller lens detail. my first question to you in this forum is... Must I replace it with a Heliar lens, or can I use another brand? I've looked through Ebay, classifieds, etc.. and could not find any for the bergheil. I did find out why my brother made such a mint selling it because Heliar is quite expensive. also, I dont know how to install the lens if I find one.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 20, 2015 20:20:23 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum,
The Voigtlander Bergheil may be a deep problem as to a spare lens, as some of the many variants of the Bergheil had dedicated lenses and shutters, and that is another issue, has just the lenses been removed, or the entire shutter and lens as a unit?
Most Bergheil have a simple bayonet fit to the lens/shutter unit....has yours the Bayonet mount?
If it has left the camera without the lens and shutter, then one way is to get another complete camera to strip and move over the missing bits.
But it will be difficult to find another that works and it would be a pity to strip the camera just for parts. It is easier if the version has the bayonet.
The Bergheil came in many variants, and although you know it was a Heliar, they came in various max apertures, and shutter variants.
The first thing is to find the camera variant, it could be the De-luxe model if it has the green bellows. Google images can help here, just put in the name Voigtlander Bergheil 6.5x9 camera and it will show most of the variants and the page reference.
The chances of a shutter with lens to fit being sold separately are very long indeed, but most of the bayonet types fit most of the bodies, so keep a standing search on Ebay for the lens you need.
The Berheil was an advanced camera for it's day, more features than most rivals, and better lenses.
Stephen.
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Post by lonestr on Apr 20, 2015 22:55:54 GMT -5
Stephen, thanks for the response. It appears that the entire lens and shutter assembly is gone. What's left is the metallic ring with the lever at eleven o'clock. I'm assuming that's the bayonet. Looks like my brother pressed the lever and popped the entire assembly out. As I mentioned before, I'm in it for the joy of taking photos, it doesn't necessarily need to be the exact lens and shutter, but the option to take the nice photos it was designed to do. I'd like to concentrate in portraits and short distant shots. I'll start looking for the complete assembly for the bergheil, just don't know exactly which one came with the camera. If I must pay for the high cost to match the body to the lens, then so be it. I'd like to get started in taking photographs as soon as possible. The camera is a simple 6.5x9 black bellow plate Bergheil. Appears to be the 1927 make. Any thoughts in the direction to take this? Thanks
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 21, 2015 5:48:27 GMT -5
As you are interested in using a small plate camera, then purchase another make to get going, there are lots on Ebay. All the 6x9 types take 120 roll film holders, Rollux, Rada etc, that regularly turn up on Ebay. They are pretty universal, but may neeed a bit if filing on the slides to fit some makes, or the slides eased open etc.
An Agfa Standard from the 20/30s is a good starting point, good lenses and proper focusing, at the other end several Zeiss models. Few have the Berheil type separate tele lenses. Just make sure the camera works, and the lens is not full of fungus!
Ernemann made many very reasonable quality small plate cameras. The Voigtlander did have some of the better lenes in this type of small plate camera.
Film for the slides is difficult to source, thats why a 120 roll film back is useful. However printing paper can be used in the plate holders for some purposes, the resultant negative can be scanned to print out.
The alternative is a small studio type camera, wooden body, and this type have plain lens boards that can be changed to fit any lens. Most would be pre-first world war. There are many Edwardian cameras of the field type that are a hybrid of wood and metal that may suit.
The other alternative is a 120 roll film folding camera, Zeiss, Ensign, there are dozens of good 1930's 120 6x9 roll film cameras around. Lots had rangefinders etc.
Stephen.
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Post by lonestr on Apr 21, 2015 9:36:32 GMT -5
Great advice Stephen, in actuality, my interest in the bergheil format is the secondary project to which I'm learning to be fully knowledgeable and apply the newly acquired skills to old methods of photography. I currently have a Minolta Autocord twin reflex camera that I simply love. Incredible pictures. I've come across a Mamiya c330f a friend did not want, however, it has some issues that require my sending it to get CLA'd. Stephen, you are my new mentor. I shall enjoy gleening some of that photography knowledge and experience as time goes by. I'm very interested in the 120 roll back you mentioned for the Bergheil. I shall look for the brands you mentioned and hope to find the Heliar lens. With your help, I'd like to put my grandmothers camera back into service. God Bless
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 21, 2015 12:14:40 GMT -5
An aside on the roll film adaptors, and that is the register of the film plane. Obviously the plate holders and a cameras origial glass plate will register in the correct plane of focus on the film, but the roll film adaptors, may, not be the same register.They usually are on quality cameras, and most German makes, but here are exceptions. Rada and Rollop both fit Ernemann, Agfa, Voigtlahder, Ihagee, and Zeiss, agreeing in a flange side to glass distant of 2mm. But to get the best from the adaptor, it is best to measure the distance just to make sure, there were no official standards then. It barely affects landscape work at small apetures, but might affect portraits where wide open lenses may be used to give shallow focus. Agafa Standrd, with Rollop 120 back The Rollop back, takes any 120 roll film. Agafa Standard, not quite in the Bergheil league, but takes fine photos! Stephen.
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Post by lonestr on Apr 21, 2015 15:11:59 GMT -5
I'll start checking ebay and etsy for Rada and Rollop. Would you happen to know where I can find a copy of the Bergheil instruction manual or a camera similar to the Voigtlander Bergheil model. Thanks Stephen.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 21, 2015 16:29:05 GMT -5
The Butkus site has the most free manuals,(contributions accepted), but not this exact model. But the Bergheil is very simple really, just focus, aperture and speed, nothing much else bar opening up the camera! The only other lens was the Telephoto, and fits the bayonet. Use google fo these searches, it may need several re-phrasings at times but is amazing what can be found. Stephen.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 21, 2015 16:40:01 GMT -5
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Stephen
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Still collecting.......
Posts: 2,718
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Post by Stephen on Apr 21, 2015 17:01:11 GMT -5
That is the front of the Bergheil and shows the three lugs that take the flange of the bayonet. The catch at the top retains the bayonet. The size varies on the larger models. The inside of the bayonet has a fine thread like shutter/lens units that fit ordinary cameras. This thread was not standard, each lens has it's own, as the diameter of the glass varies. So other makes may not screw in. Stephen.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 21, 2015 17:12:00 GMT -5
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Post by rickoleson on Apr 21, 2015 21:19:52 GMT -5
Many years ago I picked up a 6x9 Bergheil with no bellows left on it. I still have the lens & shutter and the roll film back from it, which I mounted on my Miniature Speed Graphic. www.flickr.com/photos/26262745@N08/3087559290/in/set-72157610757987197The lens is a 10.5 cm f/4.5 Heliar, mounted in a Dial Set Compur with speeds from 1 to 1/250 second. Unfortunately, I did not keep either the camera body or the bayonet shutter mounting ring after I swapped the usable parts onto the Speed Graphic. I think you should be able to use any 105mm lens in leaf shutter on the Bergheil, if you can cobble together something to mount it to the lens standard with. Any other focal length will be way off for infinity focus, and a 150mm (or anything much over 105) won't focus on ANYTHING. Whatever you swap onto it, you will need to put a groundglass in the film plane and see where your focus is coming out .... but if you start with a 105 you will be very close, and once you get it positioned correctly at infinity you should be able to trust the distance scale. Either a Triplet or a Tessar should work OK, assuming that you can't find a Heliar. Stopping down a bit, of course, will help make the focus more forgiving. Try to find a lens/shutter that does NOT have front-cell focusing ... but if that's all you can find, you can either keep the lens at infinity and focus with the camera standard, or else you can set the standard at infinity and focus with the lens, either way should work once you have infinity correct.
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Post by lonestr on Apr 22, 2015 14:44:11 GMT -5
Stephen, thank you so much. Now that you have elaborated on the bayonet system, I now have a better understanding of what you are conveying. Luckily I still have the ring attached to the bellow opening. looks like my brother forgot to include it to the compur system when he sold it.
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Post by lonestr on Apr 22, 2015 15:00:39 GMT -5
Rickoleson, Awesome infor buddy!! I'm impressed with the level of expertise in this forum. I have learned so much between you and Stephen in the short period of time since I've joined this site. Now, my ground glass has a chip and a few scratchy marks, but for now it should suffice for the time being, however, I have the sneaky suspicion that I may need to replace it. Any thoughts on the matter? Can I have one made or must it be original due to the precision of the back inserts.
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Stephen
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Post by Stephen on Apr 22, 2015 15:19:20 GMT -5
Any thin glass will do, it merely has to rest the ground suface on the same register surface, without being so thick as to foul the back closing.
The glass can be frosted quite easily, with car engine valve grinding compound. Use the course grade on a cloth, or leather, and rub with figure of 8 random motion as evenly as possible all over the glass, till it is an even ground surface.
You may wish to sample a test piece made with the fine compound to compare the two, usualy the fine gives the best surface. The course may give a brighter image. Do not worry if at first it is patchy when the compound is wiped away, just go on again, and eventually it will get an even finish. It may take an hour or more working with the paste to get it perfect.
Other than that hard lexan plastic, (perspex or lucite), etc may be used, again ground with fine grinding paste, or emery powder.
If you have access to a factory that bead or grit blasts items, then they may be able to do the glass for you, make sure the back is masked with tape, and you want a very fine frosting, using fine grade beads or grit.
Stephen.
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