Exposing on photo paper - silly idea ?

[Berndt]

Last week, there has been one of the most lucky days in my "photographic life". I found three large format cameras at a flea market in the neighbourhood and bought them for "nobody can say NO" price

At least 80 years old if not older, a wonderful Zeiss Tessar 21 cm F:4.5 included ... litterarely a huge treasure box, most likely the whole equipment of a photographer long time ago ... and everything in excellent condition.

I have zero experience with large format photography because I never thought, that I would be able to afford such an equipment in my life ... but of course, I want to try it now !!!

4x5 inch, 8x10 inch or even bigger should be possible and I start thinking now, what would be the easiest ( and cheapest ) way for experimenting a little bit with this equipment. Just checking the prices for film and development in town, I became a little bit shocked though

So I thought ... and I don't know if that is just a silly idea or not ... I might use photo paper instead of film. It's cheaper ( especially B/W would be good enough for the beginning ) and easier to process at home. What I will get, is a "negative", but that wouldn't be that bad, because I could scan and reverse it easily.

Would that work ? Or is it just a stupid idea ? What do you think ?

[mickeyobe]

berndt,

I have done it. I used Ilford Multigrade. Ilford told me to try 10 ASA and it worked perfectly in my Gundlach Korona 8x10 camera.
I put the paper negative in my scanner and obtained an excellent copy negative which I reversed in Photoshop.

You don't even need a completely dark room to load the film holders as you can use a proper Multigrade safelight.

Mickey

[daveh]

As an option: get some glass and a bottle of emulsion coating to roll your own. I've tried it myself though!

If you use thin paper you can print through it - a bit like the old paper negatives.

[Berndt]

Cool ... thank you. That sounds good

As an option: get some glass and a bottle of emulsion coating to roll your own. I've tried it myself though!

Mmmh ... what does that mean ? Something like that ?

[Berndt]

BTW ... I just checked the plate holders of those three cameras more closely. It's neither 4x5 nor 5x7 nor 8x10 inch ... it's exactly 12x16,5 cm on the two smaller ones and 25,5x30,5 cm on the biggest. So "do it yourself" might be the best option anyway.

12x16,5 cm ... 25,5x30,5 cm ... weird sizes. Is it possible to guess the age of those cameras by this ? Couldn't find any brand name on it ... but maybe I should take and post some pictures too.

[mickeyobe]

berndt,

It is easy to trim paper with either a guillotine or a straight edge and utility knife.
Do try to get single weight paper if it is available. It is easier to load. I couldn't find any but managed quite well with heavier stock.

It might be easier to guess the cameras' age with photos.

Mickey

[nikonbob]

berndt

The smaller size, from what I can find, is "half plate" and you might be able to find film and film holders for that. The larger size is 10 inches x 12 inches and very difficult to use today. Again from what I have read, because of lack of readily available pre cut film and holders. You have got a heck of an interesting project going there to put them to work. Yea, post some photos when you can as those cameras are usually wood and brass beauties.

Bob

[Berndt]

Got things sorted a little bit meanwhile. There have been so many things in this box and it took me a while to find out, what belongs to what. And I had a little bit time to take a few pictures ( at least of the small and medium camera, but the largest one looks actually the same - just bigger ).

What I know now is, there are three cameras. The smallest one uses 12x16.5cm ( 4 3/4 x 6 1/2 inch ), the medium one, I don't know as there unfortunately do not exist any plateholders and the largest camera takes pictures on 25.5x30.5cm ( 10 x 12 inch ). At least I am very lucky, that there are enough wooden plateholders for the small and largest camera.

All cameras do not have any shutter, but there are some devices in this treasure box, which look like shutter units but of very ancient design and it seems, that those are not working anymore ( or I don't know how to use them ). Will take pictures of them later as well. Haven't seen anything like that before

Really nice, that I might be able to use photographic paper as well, because as I noticed today while trying to buy some, they do have the exact sizes, I need. So, I don't need to cut anything.

So here come the pictures:

First and second one shows the smallest camera from front and back:


Unkown plate camera small front by bokuwanihongasuki, on Flickr


Unkown plate camera small backside by bokuwanihongasuki, on Flickr

And here two pics of the medium sized camera:


Unkown plate camera medium front by bokuwanihongasuki, on Flickr


Unkown plate camera medium backside by bokuwanihongasuki, on Flickr

And here a picture of the tripod mount ...


Unkown plate camera tripod mount by bokuwanihongasuki, on Flickr

... and a last picture of both cameras side by side:


Unknown plate cameras small and medium by bokuwanihongasuki, on Flickr

I didn't have time to clean them yet. So, they look like I took them right out of the box. BTW, any idea, what I kind of metal has been used ? Could it be chrome ? Want to buy a suitable cream for cleaning and polishing it a little bit.

Any idea about the age of those monsters ? The old guy, who sold it to me, said something about "Meiji-jidai" ( in Japanese, the time is defined by the period of the governance of a certain emperor - until now ), which would be translated as something between 1868-1912

[mickeyobe]

berndt,

They are very beautiful cameras.
The metal might be nickel.

You don't need a shutter. Take a look at what I used. The lid from a pickle jar spray painted matte black and a wooden knob salvaged from an old drawer.
Pull out the dark slide.
Pull off the lid/shutter.
Count the seconds.
Replace the lid/shutter.
Replace the dark slide.
Head for the darkroom.



If I ever have a coat of arms my motto will be K.I.S.S.

Mickey

[Berndt]

Fantastic, Mickey ... I can't wait for getting started !!!

What do you think, where I should start ? I mean, regarding the exposure times ? How sensitive is photo paper ? I found something written on the one I bought like: ISO speed P500 ISO range R110. Any idea, what that could mean ?

I thought, I might start at a certain exposure time and close the lens down ( using a new sheet of paper of course ). I have six plate holders ( for two sheets each ) ... so I can take 12 pics before heading the darkroom.

Does photo paper show the same characteristics as film ? For example, if I would get a good exposed picture at ... let's say two second ( daylight, ISO 100, 1/125 sec, f:8 for example ), would I need to expose my photo paper for four seconds if 1/60 is needed ? Do you know, what I mean ? Is it possible to find some "scale", where I can calculate the necessary exposure time on photo paper from the exposure measurements of a light meter ?

[mickeyobe]

berndt,

I can't remember what exposure(s) I used. I took a reading of the scene using Ilford's reccomended ASA 10 and stayed with that. I do remember stopping the lens down considerably to give me a long exposure (possibly 10 seconds) and thus minimize error that would be inevitable with a short exposure.

Why not take one picture only at that speed, develop it and proceed from there rather than make 12 exposures all at once.

I think that paper would probably behave the same as film barring reciprocity failure. Try it. What is there to lose?

Something I did not try but might make an interesting experiment is using Multigrade filters to alter the contrast of the negative. Hold the filter in front of your light meter to see what exposure adjustment is needed and then hold it in front of the lens for the exposure.

Mickey

[daveh]

berndt, I did leave 'not' out - I haven't tried it myself (making my own glass plates that is.)

A nice little video you pointed to - at least you will know what a dunkelkammer is! It was something of that sort I had in mind.

In terms of paper speed, I'm trying to think back how long an exposure had to be when doing a print or enlargement from a negative. Whatever it was, paper is significantly slower than (modern) film.

Can you not do a test strip in a similar way to what you do when enlarging. Rather than take the front plate out fully from the cassette in one go, move it up say a quarter each time - expose for 4, 8, 16, 32 seconds, or whatever. If you took an exposure meter reading at the time you should be able to work out the ISO film (paper) speed rating.

[Berndt]

Dave and Mickey, thanks a lot !!! I refurbished the plateholders so far, that I could load the first sheets of film today and can run my first tests tomorrow. I can use my "Dunkelkammer" just at night, because I can't get my appartment light tight during the day. I use the bathroom and taped the window ... but still ... appartments in Tokyo are not that comfortable. We all need to improvise a lot here

[Rachel]

Berndt, you could try using a changing bag to load your film holders but possibly their size may make it difficult.

[mickeyobe]

I just watched the Wet Plate Collodion film.
I would not have lasted very long as a photographer back then.

berndt,

Depending upon the paper you are using you might not need total darkness. Make your dunkelkammer as dark as possible and keep yourself between any light leak and the paper.

I would loan you my dunkelkammer but it is not portable. Until now I never knew I had one.

Mickey