Leica buying advice

[truls]

There is a Leica for sale, the price is $250 already. Should I bid on this camera? Her is the camera:




Here is the link to the auction:
www.tradera.com/leica-kamera-nr-224681-auktion_1408_164438452
(Sorry, but it is in Swedish language)

[daveh]

If you google "Leica kamera nr 224681" you can bring up the URL for the site and "translate this page" - for me that brings the site into English. I don't know if there is an English version direct from the site itself.

Should you bid on it? My motto with Leica stuff now is "if I can afford it it's not really collectible". With three days left I can see the price rising considerably from its present 1536 krona.

[Deleted]

That's awfully cheap for a Leica I. For some reason I sense the small of a converted FED or Zorki. Maybe it's paranoia but there has been a lot of old Soviet Leica II copies converted into "Luftwaffe Leicas" and the like.

Wayne

[Stephen]

Notes for poster and general identification of Leica,

I would agree that there are slightly worrying things, the rewind knob top is usually plain on Leica, this has the shaft top showing. The etching on the lens is a little below Leica's standards. The knurling looks like Russian to me. But it is only when handling them that the problems become more obvious. It may be an old Leica body, with worn parts replaced with Russian bits, (a bit unlikely), or a fake production using parts from Zorki/Fed, and new items made for the distinct Leica 1 parts.

Only an expert actually handling it will confirm it is, or is not a Leica, the shutter should sound quiet, Russian shutters are louder, and shock is felt through the body as it fires. The lens will be better finished inside than a Russian one. The interior under the bottom cover should look like Leica's arrangements, the Russian are a bit different, it needs a direct comparison to a Russian sample.

Some Russian fakes are very convincing indeed, not like the just post war knock off's made in Cairo etc, here spelling mistakes made things more obvious.......

Few Russian cameras resembled the Leica 1, but parts can be made very easily, and the work is worth while when the faker gets a high sale price, but assess whether it is coming from Russia, or is a sale by a person who has found out it is not genuine, and is selling it on.

Look at the description carefully, assess what the seller says. In the UK "Caveat Emptor", let the buyer beware in an auction, unless illegal forgery is indicated.

If buying rare Leica privately, then ask for the seller to go to a Leica dealer, and get it examined, and only buy with a receipt that describes it fully, so that in case of problems there is a legal comeback.

On the Luftwaffe etc., they are often obvious, Leica never made them!!! the original where special productions and recorded, and some of the fakes are ludicrous in the features that they have, like post war changes!! Leica did not make the variants that you see, these came about in the era between the Soviet production and factory closures. Ex Soviet workers also continued to make the rarer cameras till recently. One or two continue with very sound fakes, these turn up in the auction world every few months, they are good, but an expert can tell, and usually they surface in the States.



To show a fake that I was personally involved with identifying, a customer brought in a nice Leica outfit to sell in about 1976 to the shop, he was a retired Civil Service African Commissioner, who had taken well known published photographs of African game and landscapes. I believe one shot was on a National Geographic magazine cover.....

I took one glance at the Leica, and thought, that's a Fed, and got our Manager to look at it and prepare a quote for part exchange. He thought though that it was a genuine Leica, being part of an outfit of seven lenses, all well known Leica glass, all genuine.

The shop owner came down from his office and waited while the manager told the gentleman the news that it might not be Leica, and must be examined more closely.

The news was dismissed by him, he said he had used the camera for 30 years, it had been serviced by Leica, and adjusted to focus accurately with the other lenses.....which raised alarms in my mind and well as the shops owner.

We took the camera into the office, and I firmly said it was Russian, and potentially near worthless, but the lens were genuine. so I said that being experienced with repairs, I would remove the top and look inside, which I did, holding up the top towards him as it was removed, without me looking first.
His faced dropped as he saw the beaten out remains of the Russian lettering inside.

What we had got was a "Cairo" Russian camera, they made them just after the war, a single craftsman seemed responsible, he did a modest conversion, which involved re-engraving and re-plating, and altering the lens front to include the Leitz name, plus Elmar. However his spelling was his let down, on the lens it reads Lietz, and Wetzler on the body!! When closely examined the front of the lens had been part machined away to remove the Russian lettering, engraved and re-plated. Cleaning over the years had exposed brass only in the engraved area......

My manager was mortified not to have noticed!! I had to admit I had seen other samples before, he had not, but my standing in identifying fakes went up.

The Seller was quite shocked to see the con job pulled on him, and then admitted that he had bought it in Cairo, and the service by Leica, was done in Kenya by a local agent, and in a way, they had done a good job, as this particular Russian camera boasted a real Leica focus cam and lever, the one and only genuine part.

He said he rarely used the standard lens, with so much wildlife photography, and had been unimpressed with its performance. any way, we bought all the lenses at full market value, and the camera was bought by the owner of the shop as a curiosity. I did make an offer, but he kept the camera........

Stephen.

[truls]

Thanks for your most kind advice. I have written to the person owning the Leica, if he can provide more information of where the camera comes from and so, will wait for an answer. Most likely I will skip this camera. It could look like a modified Fed, but I am not qualified to judge this. And yes, if its a real Leica 1 the price would have been higher.

[truls]

The Leica at the auction looks like this one:

corsopolaris.net/supercameras/leica_RF/leicaRF2.html

[Stephen]

The photos of the genuine ones do have a shaft showing on the rewind, others on the net do not, so that can be dismissed as evidence.

Looks a bit more genuine, nothing else looks 100%wrong, so only a close examination, especially inside, some fakers forget to change the tip of the focusing lever that runs on the back of the lenses, the Russian tip is very simple, some Leitz are shaped cams, some are rollers, some retro fitted rollers, all look better made than the Russian ones.

The lens flange rim has no "Germany" engraved on it, but I am not sure if Leitz was consistent on this. It is usually between the infinity mark, and the mtr or foot mark. This may have only started after the war.

I was told by the owner of camera repair shop that the genuine version weigh more by half an ounce, I have never tested this advice. He said that Leica used thicker metal. Unfortunately he has passed away, he could have identified a fake at a glance, he had designed cameras, and helped with the Reid Sigrist Leica clone design made in the 1940's.

Stephen.

[julio1fer]

My motto with Leica stuff now is "if I can afford it it's not really collectible"

I'd go further. If I can afford it, then it's not a Leica.

Nice story about the Russian fakes. Probably not a problem with M stuff.

[daveh]

The lens is marked as 50mm. Was it not usual for lenses of this era to be marked in cm rather than mm? Certainly the two Leica lenses I have of some age are marked 5cm (Xenon) and 13.5cm (Hektor).

[Berndt]

Interesting read. Thanks Stephen, for the detailed information. Leicas are probably the best business in the world of vintage cameras. Most famous antique camera shops here in Tokyo are specialized on Leicas and sell them at impressive prices. I have never been seriously interested in buying one, because I always think: How many beautiful and also interesting cameras can I get for the same price.

Collecting Leicas requires to have much more money, than you can spend in a normal way ... like collecting Ferraris or Rolex watches. But I can also understand wish to have at least one "special or personal dream camera" in our collection. For me, that has been a Zeiss Super Ikonta a while ago. However, you can basically forget the idea of making a bargain with those kind of cameras ( at least on auctions ). People know the value and the prices usually just vary at a few dollars, depending on the condition of the camera.

[Stephen]

I tried to turn it on it's head in the 1970's by collecting the Russian cameras, along with any clones of Leica etc., they were cheap, but difficult to find, a real Pre war Fed was a treasure to see and buy for £5.

Times change and the silly Russians dropped communism, and the FED and Zorki appeared over here everywhere!

With clones, suddenly people have actually heard on Kardan, Leotax, Melcom, Nicca and Foca, and the prices have gone sky high, and with Digital reflexes the lenses are sought after and the price skyrocketed.......

I do like the bravery of the copyists in Russia who make Olympic 1936 models based on post war cameras...or Luftwaffe Black models with brown leather and post war bodies!! or gold plated specials, gifts, or commemorative issues with models made before the date purported to relate to in the engraving!

For shear gall I think the best was Hermann Goering's own Contax, with his signature engraved on it.......it was a Post war Kiev, with some West German Zeiss parts.....I must say they don't seem to have tried to sell Eva Braun's Leica!!!!

The argument against the fake is often that the person stating it cannot be a fake, is basing his position of not understanding how easy it to make the parts, they say how can it be based on a FED, say, the top is so different,....well any half competent toolmaker could produce the stamping form in a day or two, you don't modify existing bits, you replace the parts.

For the Leica 1 a new top, the bottom of a Fed, new shutter cover, and the viewfinder, which needs lenses, they can be sourced easily from other makes spares, or in the case of the ex-soviet producers they had the spare factories to grind the required lenses. Bead blast the parts, get them nickel chrome plated, acid dip to age them, or tumble them, (a factory finishing process), assemble and then polish to reveal a bit of brassing, suddenly you have a £3000 quid camera to auction off. CNC engraving can deal with any logos , before the plating, and helps make replacement parts like flash shoes.

There are only one or two cameras worth spending a lot on, Le Coutre Compass, and the Tessina, both Swiss engineering triumphs and also the Alpa Swiss cameras, one of which I do own, and just to annoy Zeiss Leica owners and collectors, it is far, far, better made!! ..eccentric, yes...odd, but the precision of the parts, and the Kern 50mm Macro standard lens......nothing comes near it.

Stephen.

[truls]

I could make a bid of 3000 krona ($500). Most likely at Swedish auctions the price will not exceed this. I get the "Leica" and can examine the camera or disassemble and post pictures to find out if its for real. If its a genuine Leica I get happy, Or, I end up collecting fake leicas.... A learning experience?

[hansz]

I would like to have a Contaflex TLR... no fakery here... (or a Contarex Hologon...). I wish.. I wish... etc...
Hans

[Deleted]

I've even seen FEDs dressed up to look like a Leotax, and FEDs dressed up to look like very early Zorkis. There's no end to the creativity of some folks. One of the best ways to identify a fake is to wind and snap the shutter and focus it. Then do the same with a genuine Leica. I have several Soviet FED and Zorki 1s that are pretty smooth but non compare to a real Leica. Real Leicas also are much more difficult to disassemble and reassemble because their tolerances are much tighter.

There were a few Soviet models that come close in quality--some were apparently made for important people, The leather cases for those usually were lined with a soft green material rather than the normal red. I have one Zorki 1B of that type. It even has a connection for an electronic flash (that was probably added after it left the factory).

W.

[lloydy]

Sept 26, 2012 15:38:02 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Notes for poster and general identification of Leica,


On the Luftwaffe etc., they are often obvious, Leica never made them!!! the original where special productions and recorded, and some of the fakes are ludicrous in the features that they have, like post war changes!! Leica did not make the variants that you see, these came about in the era between the Soviet production and factory closures. Ex Soviet workers also continued to make the rarer cameras till recently. One or two continue with very sound fakes, these turn up in the auction world every few months, they are good, but an expert can tell, and usually they surface in the States.

Stephen.

I was looking at the stuff on a Nazi memorabilia stall in a large antiques center, It's not my thing but I was on the look out for old camera stuff. By chance I had my Zorki 4K slung over my shoulder and partly concealed by my coat. A guy came over and asked if it was a Leica, and I showed him the Zorki. The guy was the stallholder, a guy who liked the sound of his own voice. Ane he went on to tell me that he'd just bought a very rare SS Leica, he even had a photograph of the camera, resplendent with the stylized SS logo and a coat of arms.
"I was lucky to get this" he said proudly, "It cost me £2,000 though, and I know it's not a fake, I'm a renowned expert on Nazi memorabilia" he said as I surveyed the junk before me, the old boxes of lapel badges and insignia. The whole lot wasn't worth 50 quid !