mickeyobe
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Post by mickeyobe on Apr 17, 2010 13:19:10 GMT -5
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Post by Randy on Apr 17, 2010 17:16:16 GMT -5
Don't have to worry about it with my 23 year old 1 ton Dodge truck.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2010 18:52:30 GMT -5
Good information but that whole business is overblown, EVERY car from the Model T Ford through today's newest models has weak points. When you consider the number of cars on the road the number of design malfuncions are very small. Also interesting how hard the govt came down on Toyota --the sales leader in the U.S. at the same time as it was bailing out General Motors, whose cars were't selling as well.
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mickeyobe
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Post by mickeyobe on Apr 18, 2010 2:00:02 GMT -5
Wayne, Wow! I couldn't have said it better. Five stars for you. ☆☆☆☆☆ My 2005 Toyota Matrix is the best car I have ever driven. But it does have several weak points. When I brought them to the attention of the dealer I was greeted with heartfelt indifference. My two previous Hondas did not have any serious flaws and the dealers were always attentive and caring. Year after year I would bring them in for their regular scheduled maintenance and when asked if there were any problems my answer was invariably "None, thank you." I never, ever, had to come back because something had not been done. And I never had to wait for the invoice to be prepared. I drove my first one for 8 years and my second for 11 years. My next car will, once again, be a Honda. But, if I happened to be driving any car that decided it was its own boss, I would be glad to know how to stop it safely. Mickey
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Apr 18, 2010 9:17:17 GMT -5
Mickey, I love your phrase "heartfelt indifference". I'll bet they were also agog with apathy. PeterW
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Apr 18, 2010 10:00:02 GMT -5
I often wonder if cars are becoming far too automatic and reliant on electronics for their own good.
I noted that the consumer test and video was carried out on a dry road. So what happens on a wet road when you are possibly more likely to meet an unexpected hazard and need to stop safely and in time? If heavy braking locks the wheels the tyres lose all resistance to sideways movement so you are likely to spin.
Ah yes, of course, anti-lock braking systems. But if they happen to have developed a fault, or become seized from lack of use?
Then you have to resort to cadence braking. But I don't suppose cadence braking is taught these days.
Driving schools teach you how to pass the driving test. After that you start to learn how to drive, but very few people make any attempt to learn.
Learning by experience can be a dangerous thing. Your first experience might be your last.
Today's cars are just too damned easy to drive.
PeterW
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 10:12:37 GMT -5
It's all about Lawyers. If Henry Ford was making his first car today, class action lawsuits set up by slimy attorneys would shut down the business. The Model T had to be hand cranked. If you weren't careful and advanced the spark too much when cranking, the engine would backfire, flip the crank handle out of the driver's hand. The crank would twirl backwards and the handle would strike the back of the driver's arm, breaking it. It was common enough there was a name for it--the "Ford Fracture," Can you imaging what ambulance chasers would do with that today? As soon as they announced there might be a problem with some Toyota throttles, suddenly the number of reports of that problem increased 100 fold. It's called inducing mass hysteria. We have a Toyota, have driven it 70,000 miles and haven't had a single problem (knock on wood). We wouldn't trade it for top of the line 2010 Chevy, Dodge or Ford.
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mickeyobe
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Post by mickeyobe on Apr 18, 2010 12:01:37 GMT -5
Don't have to worry about it with my 23 year old 1 ton Dodge truck. 23 years old huh? You drop an anchor through the floorboards? Mickey
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mickeyobe
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Post by mickeyobe on Apr 18, 2010 12:03:37 GMT -5
Mickey, I love your phrase "heartfelt indifference". I'll bet they were also agog with apathy. PeterW Yes they were. I wish they had been agag with apathy. Perhaps they are now. PeterW, what is cadence braking. I am not too old to learn. Mickey
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Post by Randy on Apr 18, 2010 12:24:28 GMT -5
Don't have to worry about it with my 23 year old 1 ton Dodge truck. 23 years old huh? You drop an anchor through the floorboards? Mickey No, actually, it's built like a tank. It has 12 inch rotors on the front, and huge drum brakes on the rear. I never drove it in the snow, so there isn't much rust.
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Post by pompiere on Apr 18, 2010 13:06:31 GMT -5
Mickey, PeterW, what is cadence braking. I am not too old to learn. Mickey I think that is what we in the US call pumping the brakes.
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mickeyobe
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Post by mickeyobe on Apr 18, 2010 14:52:03 GMT -5
Mickey, PeterW, what is cadence braking. I am not too old to learn. Mickey I think that is what we in the US call pumping the brakes. The instructions in that little movie explicitly say NOT to pump the brakes as the power braking would fail which would make braking very difficult and, probably for some, impossible. I learned to pump the brakes many years ago and had to unlearn it when I bought my second Honda with power steering and an anti lock braking system. Not pumping keeps the car going in a straight line. I experienced this about 15 years ago, driving home on snowy roads during a heavy snowfall. Somebody in a 4 wheel drive passed me on a narrow, two lane overpass. As he reached the top of the incline his vehicle spun around and around and bounced from one side of the bridge to the other several times. I remembered my unlearning and pressed hard on the brake pedal. My car came to a controlled stop. And I am here to talk about it. So is the speed demon. Mickey
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Apr 18, 2010 20:33:55 GMT -5
Cadence braking isn't the same as what we in the UK call pumping the brakes. Pumping carries an idea of fast, almost panic, stabbing at the brake pedal. If you do that you can empty the reservoir on the vacuum-assisted power braking and leave yourself with a VERY heavy brake pedal. Cadence, in my dictionary, is defined as "the beat or measure of something rhythmic" Cadence braking, as I was taught it way back, is controlled steady application of the brakes, increasing the pressure on the pedal until you feel the wheels to be just on the point of locking. I was taught to do this on a skid pan, and it's easier to feel this point than to describe it. You do this over and over. As soon as you reach the locking point point you release the brakes and start again. With practice you can bring the car to a stop in the wet while going round a curve in a controlled way without skidding or losing the back end. I was taught NOT to knock the gear lever into neutral (manual, not auto gearbox) because you would lose any assistance from engine braking. If you'd got time to drop down to a lower gear with a manual gearchange you were taught to do so, but ONLY if you'd practiced this time and again and were sure of getting the gear. I was taught this, and other advanced driving techniques, back in the 1960s when the police weren't so short of manpower and could spare high-speed pursuit instructors two or three times a year to take civilians on a five-day course including an afternoon on the skid pan. It cost about £50 for the course, which was a lot of money back then, but every penny was well-spent. I believe the money went to the Police Benevolent Fund. There was always a waiting list to go on these courses. You took the course on three- or four-year old ex-pursuit cars and the instructor had a foot switch on his side of the car with which he could cut the ignition without warning, just to see what your response was. If it wasn't correct you were taught what it ought to be. Modern anti-lock braking systems are really an electronic application of the principle of cadence braking. They work exactly the same way by sensing wheel rotation. As soon as the wheel stops rotating, the system releases the brake and then starts again. The advantage is that the system does it very fast so you don't notice the lock-and-release. The disadvantage is that the mechanical part of the linkage can, and sometimes does, seize up from lack of use in normal year-in, year-out driving. How cadence braking would marry with anti-lock braking systems I don't know, but I imagine it might. Unfortunately I can't try it because with my disability I voluntarily surrendered my driving licence last year after 66 years of driving, road and track testing and writing about, everything from minicars to 48-tonne artic rigs with 16 gear ratios. My reactions are still fast, but the disability affects the muscles in my right leg which could take SECONDS, not milliseconds, to respond to brain messages and move from the accelerator to applying pressure on the brake pedal. Had it been my left leg I would have gone for a car with an automatic gearbox and taken a disabled driving test. But never mind, these things happen. I still get around on my 8 mph electric buggy. Fully hand controlled; quarter of a turn from lock to lock. And as it's a d.c. motor with maximum torque at zero revs the acceleration from rest is quite something: 0 to 8 mph in under half a second! I can use cadence braking too. I found that left thumb on the reverse lever gives regenerative braking, and if you use it too hard you could go flying over the handlebars. And guess what. It isn't Japanese, it was made in the US of A, so you do get some vehicles right on that side of the pond - well, almost right. The steering geometry is designed to give a turning circle that copes with narrow aisles in supermarkets and isn't quite revised Ackermann. On tiled surfaces in shopping malls I can squeal the tyres on cornering. Great fun! PeterW
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Post by nikonbob on Apr 18, 2010 21:12:02 GMT -5
I do hate some electronics in cars, particularly what is called traction control in the car I drive. I really object to the car braking the spinning wheels automatically and unexpectedly in winter driving conditions especially when you need to keep forward momentum to avoid being hit when pulling out into traffic. It is some times normal for tires to spin. Unless the conditions are dry or wet I usually have traction control turned off in winter. The ABS system takes a bit of getting used too also. It gives me the impression of warped rotors when it comes on. That I can live with.
Bob
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Post by pompiere on Apr 19, 2010 1:56:29 GMT -5
I stand corrected. What PeterW describes is what we refer to as threshold braking, that is applying the brakes right up to the threshold of a skid.
My first experience with antilock brakes was in a Ford Explorer. The first time that I hit the brakes on an icy patch, I thought that something was broken. The system worked fine, but the pump made a terrible racket and the brake pedal was pulsing up and down. The ABS on all of my other vehicles has been pretty seamless.
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