Perceived value ?

[dee]

Drako has brought up the point that an original camera will fetch more return than a modee'fied , [ OK - messed with ] version .
Which I wholly agree with .

But how can we predict the market for mechanical film cameras in even 10 years as digital takes hold and becomes a way of life ?
Plentiful Leica IIIc s are now cheap to buy , if not to service , my lovely 32/33 Leica IIs are ' worth ' less that I paid 3 years ago .
Servicing a KNeB III of 1954 , probably won't be cost effective a Kiev 4 even less so -
if considerably more sensible than a KNeB III / IV which is pure indulgence !

My good original examples may not be dee'valued , but the Kiev shuttered Contax II , Tan and silver Contax II , KNeB III/IV , Contax III/IV are ' worth 'much more to me than any original camera .

dee

[Randy]

In these days nothing is worth nothing.

[daveh]

Randy, conversely everything is worth something, except when it isn't.

I know the Canon 7 has dropped in value from a few years back. I didn't buy it in the first place to make money on it.

I always feel sorry for those people who attend an antiques roadshow with an item that they have enjoyed using over many years, then they find it is valuable and have to wrap in cotton wool or sell it.

[PeterW]

Perceived value. That's the whole trouble with collecting anything. How much is it worth?

Here you have to beg the question and ask “Why is it worth that much – or little?”

The answer has to be that the world of collecting is one of false values. I've got it, you want it. How much will you give me for it? I suppose the answer asks another question: why does the person who wants to buy it want it, and what do they want to do with it?

The world of collecting is far too large to go into here, so let's consider just cameras. Among my friends who collect cameras are two who I suppose you could describe as representing two different types of collector.

One has a display cabinet full of cameras from Victorian brass and mahogany plate cameras to film SLRs. They are all in either near-mint original condition or cosmetically restored to look almost as new. He's very interested, and knowledgeable, about the history of cameras and his aim is to have a camera that represents each type of development in cameras over the years. He's quite skilled at cosmetic restoration but he isn't worried about whether or not the cameras in his collection work because he has no desire to use them. For his everyday photography he uses a digital SLR with automatic exposure and automatic focus. It has provision for manual over-ride but he leaves it on auto because it takes good pictures of what he wants to take.

The second chap has a collection of cameras that work. He's less interested in their cosmetic condition because he likes to use them. He's interested in what it was like to be a photographer years ago. He trained as a watch and clock repairer, and now he's retired he uses his skills to put his collection of cameras into working order by, if necessary, making or adapting parts to fit. He has a “wet” darkroom, and to be able to use cameras in his collection he's happy to cut down and respool film to fit them. He doesn't even own a digital camera.

Neither of these two friends is worried about the current market value of their cameras because they have no intention of selling them.

What's my personal standpoint? I suppose I'm somewhere between these two friends. I collect cameras from a particular era. In my case this is European cameras up to about the 1960s. If I'm haggling for a camera at a flea market or car boot sale I'll use whether it works or not as a bargaining point. If it doesn't work I'll try to get it working because I like tinkering with small mechanisms. If I get it working I'll probably, but not always, try it out. If I can't get it working I'll restore it cosmetically to the best of my ability and put it on the shelf.

Like most things, the value of a “collectable” camera depends on supply and demand. Forget price guides. I use them purely as a help in identifying a camera. I agree with what it says in the front of my copy of McKeown's: “ The price of an antique camera is entirely dependent upon the moods of the buyer and seller at the time of the transaction”. It doesn't matter how “rare” or "original" a camera is, if no-one wants to buy it its monetary value is zero.

PeterW

[nikonbob]

I buy cameras because I like them and not as an investment with the expectation that they will increase in value over time but sometimes they do. The stock market is the place for that kind of speculation. The value of stocks, like the value of cameras, is a perceived value that does not remain constant. No body has ever been successful in consistently predicting where camera or stock prices are going in the long run. In any event buying cameras and using them is a better investment than boozing it.

Bob

[dee]

I guess that I am in the enthusiast domain .

I bought Dinky Toys 'cos I like them , and was shocked , but content , as to how much they sold for to finance my Kiev / Contax obsession ... hundreds of £s , happily wasted on cameras !

My 1st , late 1970s Kiev 4 and Kiev 4m ex-Oleg CLA , perform perfectly at £43 each but they just don't have that feel and look of quality .

My Contax III , collapsible Sonnar , and Contax IV , rigid Sonnar , rebuilt Kiev shuttered Contax II with gifted Jupiter 3 with Sonnar body , cost an average of £190 each inclusive .
Utterly unreasonable , as a fine Kiev 2 with CLA is around £150 , but for me , they are ultimate Klassic Kontax experience !

[mickeyobe]

Perceived Value.

Perceived by whom?

One of my specialties, if it can be called that, is the Vest Pocket Kodak Model B. Its retail value is about $10 t0 $20.
I have nine different varieties of the camera and am always looking for more. Should I see one that differs from those I already have chances are that the asking price will be as stated above. But its value, as perceived by me is considerably more.

So we have two perceptions of its value.
A stranger passing by the dealer's booth might pick it up, examine it and ask how much. When told, he may offer $5 and walk away when his offer is rejected. A third perceived value.

And dear old McKeown's might perceive it as having a different value.

Perceived Value is an illusory figure that could only achieve realism by chance.

The Real value is the amount I give the vendor for, what to me, is a precious acquisition without monetary value.
Nothing else matters. I do hope we can settle at $15 though.

Mickey

[drako]

This is spot-on:
“The price of an antique camera is entirely dependent upon the moods of the buyer and seller at the time of the transaction”

This is an age-old issue in my custom belt buckle business. People will often email a photo of their vintage buckle that grandaddy won at a rodeo in, say, 1957. "How much is it worth?" they ask. I attempt to reply politely and without a hint of sarcasm: "Put it on eBay to find out. An institutional market for custom belt buckles does not exist."

In case you are wondering, yes, people do indeed pay money for pre-owned custom belt buckles that display the name of someone the buyer likely never even heard of.

www.BuckleBuilder.com

[John Parry]

eBay's a different thing though. You post your best price bid and hope nobody gazumps you while you turn off the computer for a day or two.

Or don't you guys do it like that?

Regards - John

[Just Plain Curt]

Personally I've gazumped 21 items this month alone. Gazumpin' and I are old friends but I get really tired of being told an old Kodak or Polaroid is worth a king's ransom. My other favourite is "Well I'm not going to give it away you know" which usually leads to finding out exactly how much the seller paid just 20 years ago for outdated technology that almost nobody wants anymore.

[Deleted]

John:

Back when I was actively collecting Soviet gear I seldom just made a bid and hoped for the best. Most of the time I would wait until the final 10 seconds to make my final bid. After I had been around for awhile some bidders knew I was a collector and would drop out fairly early, apparently thinking money was no object for me which wasn't the case. I had some bidding tricks that sometime worked (and I won't divulge because I might want to use them again some time).

The most irritating situation was when there was a piece of gear I really wanted and was willing to pay what I knew was a fair price and some newby who didn't have a clue or know anything about the equipment would bid double what it was worth.

One piece I really regret missing was a Zorki 2C which was actually one of the least desirable FSU cameras. But this one was inscribed to a Soviet naval officer for outstanding performance during Baltic Fleet maneuvers. Engraved cameras were a cheap way for the government to "reward" performance. I think it ended up selling for less than $50 but I just couldn't bring myself to pay that much for a Zorki 2C! Besides, at that time I figured someone was pretty hard up to sell an award for fifty bucks and I didn't feel right about taking advantage of someone--especially if they had been in the military, which I respect even if they were Cold War foes.

After a year or so I was pretty well acquainted with several reputable Ukrainian and Russian sellers and if I was looking for a particular camera I would email them and they would usually find one at a fair price. Dealing with me directly saved them Ebay fees so they could afford to sell for less.

Wayne

[daveh]

Ebay does let you set a maximum bid, so you will always gazump someone else, whose maximum bid is lower, by a prescribed amount. It's useful if you are not around for the final countdown.

I just used this on a Topcon 58/1.4 lens which was 'for repair' but looked as though the rubber grip was okay. Anyway someone beat me to it by 50p. Had I been around for the last moments I might have offered a little more, but it's not the end of the world.

[herron]

Jul 19, 2010 14:50:12 GMT -5 @drako said:

This is spot-on:
“The price of an antique camera is entirely dependent upon the moods of the buyer and seller at the time of the transaction”
institutional market for custom belt buckles does not exist."

Amen. I even have this on the home page of my site for old Mamiya 35mm:

Every seller needs a buyer before his/her camera has anything more than a sentimental value. Which means, the value of any vintage camera is always the price agreed upon by a particular seller and a particular buyer at any given moment in time!

[photax]

Hi !

I fully agree in old MCKeowns opinion. As Bob said, i also purchase cameras not as an investment. In the late 1980 and early 1990, as the iron curtain fell, I bought a lot of old soviet stuff, because the items had been very interesting and the prices had been low. So i added some MIG gun cameras, an aerial camera from a helicopter, two KGB F-21, two Photosnipers and some Zorkis, early Zenits, some russian plate cameras, some odd bakelite`s and Fed`s to my collection. At that time there was a large offer and low demand. Today I am not willing to pay the prices some Ebay-sellers would ask for. Or some years ago, nobody wanted a Polaroid and you got a SX-70 with accessories for equalling 1.- to 3.- USD. Its not my special interest, but i bought some and a couple of special edition Polaroids just for fun. Maybe some cameras increased the value tenfold or more, but i would not sell them anyway, because I am a collector and a proud member of this forum, not a dealer. Otherwise i would subscribe to "The Camera Dealer" forum

To my son, who is also interested in photography my collection has a great value. For my doughter ( interested in fashion and shoes ) my collection is worth nothing. Value always is in the eye of the beholder...

MIK

[dee]

There is a lovely Kiev 4 camera on e-bay at too much money considering how many there are around , but to me it's ' worth it ' just 'cos i have a 1957 / 1959 and a 1958 would cmplete the first Kiev 4 ' trilogy... a 1960 would be good too LOL
As I will be literally wiped out following this [ no work and money for ' toys ' , this is a BIG DEAL ]

dee