Dutch Uncle

[daveh]

MIK,

Dutch Uncle is not really a phrase I have ever used, not can I say I have seen it used too much in Britain. The use of "Dutch" in English (other than the simple meaning of someone or something who comes from Holland/The Netherlands) has always had something of a derogatory connotation. Britain and Holland were frequently at loggerheads, particularly at sea, over a few hundred years. This gave rise to several phrases in English like Dutch treat (when the person invited out has to pay for his or her own treat), Dutch courage (a false bravery, usually alcohol induced) and Double Dutch. Here we seem to have an example of Wiki getting it wrong. Double Dutch means that what is being spoken is a load of nonsense, not understandable. (It is not, as Wiki claims, anything to do with using two forms of contraceptives.

I think the Wiki author has come to this conclusion (of it being a double contraceptive) because of the use of Dutch Cap as the name of a contraceptive device. I believe this, the Dutch Cap, to be merely descriptive, the original shape used being like that of Dutch ladies' headgear. Also I believe its use was significantly later than the other 'Dutch whatever' i.e. is not derogatory.

As I have said, I don't think I have ever used the term Dutch uncle. For Peter I would redraft it as kindly Dutch uncle, if that is not something of a contradiction in terms.

Dave.

I write this as a new thread as something of an homage to Peter. It is what he would have done.

[nikonbob]

Dave

I don't know where Wiki got their definition from. My father used the term on occasion and I always took it to mean an adult male friend of the family who could be counted on for unbiased advice for the kids should they not believe their own parents advice. That was just my understanding through interpreting it in use and bothering to look it up in a dictionary. Never thought of "stern" entering into it at all.

The terms "Dutch Treat" and "Dutch Courage" have the same meaning for me as they do for you. The term "Double Dutch" is used to describe one or more persons skipping two ropes at a time held by two others. Not being a skipping rope expert, my wife supplied that definition.

Neither of us has heard of the term "Dutch Cap" used. My wife has never heard the term "Dutch Uncle" used.

The varying interpretations of slang phrases, English ones in any event, appear to vary greatly from place to place and evolve through time.

Our friend and mentor, Peter, was the antithesis of a stern and foreboding lecturer. Truly a kind and helpful gentleman. You don't come across too many true gentleman of his caliber any more and that makes his loss all the more difficult to take.

Bob

[mickeyobe]

There is or was a powdered cleanser called "Dutch Cleanser". I presume it was named that for the reputation the Dutch have for cleanliness. Not at all derogatory.

Mickey

[Doug T.]

Hi All!

I wonder where the word "Dutch" even came from.
I know that the Pennsylvania Dutch didn't come from The Netherlands, but in fact were a Protestant Sect from somewhere in Germany ( I don't recall where), and spoke German or "Deutsch". I think that the English speaking settlers had trouble with the word, and pronounced it more like "Dutch".
To this day, some of the Amish call anyone who is outside their community "English".

Perhaps "Dutch" was originally "Deutsch", the languages do have some similarities. Maybe that's how it came about.

I've heard the expression "Dutch Uncle" and always thought it was an older friend of the family who was like an uncle, but not related.

Doug

[photax]

Have many thanks for your explanations !

I am always interested in etymology of words and phrases, both German and English. Peter had been a true expert in this field. I think this thread is in his honour and spirit.

MIK

[Randy]

That's why a few of us called him Doctor Wallage, and Peter used to get a kick out of it.

[daveh]

What has changed significantly, particularly for the British, is that the Dutch are now looked on with fondness because of the deeds of the ordinary people in WWII. Don't forget, even in what became the USA there was battles between the Dutch and the British. Had the British not won Doug might have been living in Nieuw (New) Amsterdam State.

Certainly modern day Dutch people still have something of a name for not being overly generous with their money. At the same time the Dutch say that Belgians are the Irish of that part of Europe. (Mind you, in Ireland itself they talk of the Kerry people in the same way.) I should add that I have found neither stereotype to be really true.

There is also the vexed question of whether it is Holland or The Netherlands. We tend to use either, probably using Holland more as it is 'easier to say'. Geographically Holland (split into North and South) is a part of The Netherlands making up about a fifth of the country which contains the big cities of Amsterdam and Rotterdam.
Lest we forget how powerful and far reaching the Dutch were, it should be noted that Australia was once know as New Holland. New Zealand was named after the Dutch region of Zeeland. In spite of slight Anglicisation it has essentially retained its Dutch name.

What is true for Europe is that certain countries have been fairly well defined for hundreds of years - Britain, Spain, France, Portugal and Holland are some of this category. There have been alterations of borders but little more than that. Countries such as Germany and Italy though are relatively new. Both only really became countries in the mid to late 19th century.

Doug, yes, I have wondered how much confusion there has been between Dutch and Deutsch.

[SidW]

Hi everyone, haven't seen the Wikipedia page and no longer have free access to the online full OED. The best I have at home is the American College Dictionary, apart from various dictionaries on CD-ROMs from Win95 days that probably won't install now. Dutch Uncle: a person who criticizes or reproves with unsparing severity and frankness. I'd never heard the expression. But there are always local variations in meanng. Dictionaries and grammars tend to be written (or used to be) by people who claim a monopoly of what is correct. When I came to read books on linguistics I usually found my own English in a footnote saying "In vulgar speech you might also hear ...".

The same dictionary explains that Dutch has been an English word since the middle ages, and is derived from an old Germanic word meaning, wait for it, vulgar (but in the sense 'of the people'). It's tempting to see a connection between Dutch and Deutsch, but I couldn't find anything on that.

Finally a Dutch treat is explained as a meal or entertainment for which each person pays his own share. That was also a new one on me, I think we would have said let's split the bill. I haven't heard anyone say let's have a Dutch treat. Or again, I might have spent all my time in vulgar circles. Or not read enough Agatha Christie (that was an expression of my vulgar prejudices about the circles that she did her best to kill off).

[daveh]

Sid,

So that blows my theory that some phrases "Dutch" were British used while others weren't. I have heard/used Dutch treat, going Dutch, Double Dutch for forty and more years. Maybe their usage is a northern thing. It at times like this that one wants to ask Peter and John Parry what their thoughts are.

The Wiki article is certainly way off the mark for some phrases. The Urban Dictionary also gives some definitions, which may or may not be believed. I do think some just invent new definitions so that they can put something down. I have to say every definition of Dutch Uncle I have found hints at him being somewhat unkindly. Obviously in the version Randy and Bob used the unkindly element was not there.

Dave.

[SidW]

Just spent a while googling Ductch Uncle. The OED personal subscription costs over £200 (that's GBP if it doesn't print correctly), but public libraries often subscribe. But various dictionaries came up with earliest sightings in 19thc but no actual quotes. A blog devoted to idioms was full of quotes back to 1853. Judging by the adverts that swarmed in it seems that many business consultants have dutch uncle in their company names, and make a living by giving the grim advice needed to put one's ailing operation back on the straight and narrow. Several dutch uncles were killed off in various detective novels, none by Agathie Christie. I apologize, Agatha.