Lens lube Industar 50 m39

[truls]

There are various opinions on the net about which lens grease is suitable, and it depends on what lens. So, I need some advice for this Industar 50, m39 rigid. It is my finest lens, but the focusing have gone slow lately.

Industar lens without focus ring and scale:


A close up:


The grease is uneven and stiff, it now feels like gears inside when focusing. I hope it will be enough dismantling to clean the old grease and apply the new. But which grease? We have no camera repair selection to choose from where I live, so I will have to go to some general hardware store.

[philbirch]

Normal automotive grease is perfectly fine, the stuff you pack into bike bearings etc. It will not separate, thin, thicken and is tolerant of temperatures that humans aren't. Simple cheap grease - not lithium, silicone, molybdeum, copper, kryptonite or anything fancy - just normal, cheap multipurpose grease like this:



Clean the grease you have off first. I have heard that some Russian lenses use organic grease (probably bear or whale fat).

Lloydy will back me up on this as he is an engineer. We have both dismantled lenses and greased them over the years.

[Stephen]

The only specialist grease I use is silicone with PTFE (teflon) added. This is mainly for reference for US readers, it is sold by Labelle in Model Railroad stores, and on the net. The reference is type 106 with PTFE, (plenty on Ebay)



But any grease like Phil says will do in a lens, but the advantage of silicone is it's total immunity to drying, and it is more stable in heat, ordinary car grease will thin at 80+F, so a camera on the hot back seat of a car could thin out and creep inside the lens.

Also Labelle is totally inert to dissolving paint etc.

If you do not take apart more or cannot, then add a drop of paraffin to the old stuff, and work it back and forth till smoother. It is not a permanent cure, but may last well.

Most Russian and East German grease was awful stuff, a mixture of synthetic and natural oil, with mineral grades, tends to dry out, resembling ear wax, and melts easily.

Actually if it was Whale oil it would be the best, clockmakers treasure it!

Stephen.

[SidW]

Jul 31, 2014 16:35:35 GMT -5 Stephen said:

... If you do not take apart more or cannot, then add a drop of paraffin to the old stuff, and work it back and forth till smoother. It is not a permanent cure, but may last well...

Hope you haven't tried it yet Truls. English paraffin isn't the same as Swedish paraffin, so possibly not Norwegian either (I don't have a Norwegian dictionary). Swedish paraffin is wax. Stephen is referring to the fluid used as fuel or solvent, Swedish fotogen, I believe lampolja is similar, possibly more refined. Hope you can work out what it is in Norwegian.

[philbirch]

Jul 31, 2014 17:40:20 GMT -5 SidW said:

Jul 31, 2014 16:35:35 GMT -5 Stephen said:

... If you do not take apart more or cannot, then add a drop of paraffin to the old stuff, and work it back and forth till smoother. It is not a permanent cure, but may last well...

Hope you haven't tried it yet Truls. English paraffin isn't the same as Swedish paraffin, so possibly not Norwegian either (I don't have a Norwegian dictionary). Swedish paraffin is wax. Stephen is referring to the fluid used as fuel or solvent, Swedish fotogen, I believe lampolja is similar, possibly more refined. Hope you can work out what it is in Norwegian.

You mean paraffin as in kerosene. Although the usual lighter fuel - sorry Ronsonol for our US members - the stuff they put in Zippo lighters will cut it very well too

[Stephen]

I mentioned paraffin, kerosene, as it does not evaporate fast like petrol or naptha, lighter fluid, yes, the paraffin I meant is the liquid type for wicked stoves or pressure burners, usually smelly and stained a colour, do not use meths,(alcohol), or spirits of higher octane.
Stephen

[truls]

Thanks Sid, Phil and Stephen.

I got grease, it did not tell on the box the ingredients, but it said PTFE, and it was artificial. When it also was intended for bikes I took the chance.

So, here is what I have done:


I dismatled the lens some further to reach all parts for cleaning. Here you can see the PTFE lube type for bikes.


Also I cleaned the front elements a bit, there was dust. This was easier than I had in mind.


The bluish color says it is a coated lens. Here we can se the aperture elements, behind the second lens element.


After assembling, the mandatory test (f.8), 100% crop, it looks the lens is alive. Image some overexposed. Oh, the lens is like new, all buttery smooth.

Edit: I did the boring test chart again, confirming the lens is as good as it was before the fiddling:



6 rows of images, first row at f.3.5, left image center, right corner. Second row f.4 center, corner, and so on. The lens is quite good from f 5.6.

Edit 2: Compared to my previous test chart with the same lens it seems I have got some better contrast after cleaning the two front elements.

Edit 3: The low sharpness in the corner is due to misalignment camera vs test chart, sorry. It is not so bad in the corner as it looks.

[philbirch]

PTFE grease is a 2-part compound, Synthetic grease with Polytetrafluoroethylene particles held in suspension. It will separate at some point, Not the best lubricant to use.

[Stephen]

It does not separate, I have used Labelle for about 40 years in Model Railway and Model engineering, for the same in Cameras, and 10 years in Scientific optical manufacturing, silicone does not separate under any conditions a lens is likely to encounter. The advantage is the particles of PTFE tend to adhere to the metal surfaces and maintain lubrication for far longer than plain grease can. Separation would only occur at over 200C, 400F, where breakdown starts.

Stephen.

[Stephen]

The greases that can separate are the Lithium types with PTFE, OK within a stricter temperature range, but they contain a range of grease distillates which can cause problems at elevated temperatures and pressures. The silicone version are pure one component material and the stability is better than other greases. The PTFE does not affect the stability.

Stephen

[philbirch]

Thanks for that info. I knew it separated but obviously not at which temperatures. Good info.

Anything I know on this subject or others is based what information I can find online, what I remember from the past and what kind people like you tell me. As you know, sometimes when someone posts information on this forum that may be a little inaccurate, then a more knowledgeable member will come along and correct it. We learn that way. But this comes back to what I said at the beginning of this paragraph - how we learn stuff. We take it as gospel what others tell us.

Any idea where I can find this info online. This is a question asked on other forums. It would help if I could back up any advice.

[truls]

Aug 2, 2014 3:20:13 GMT -5 philbirch said:

Thanks for that info. I knew it separated but obviously not at which temperatures. Good info.

Anything I know on this subject or others is based what information I can find online, what I remember from the past and what kind people like you tell me. As you know, sometimes when someone posts information on this forum that may be a little inaccurate, then a more knowledgeable member will come along and correct it. We learn that way. But this comes back to what I said at the beginning of this paragraph - how we learn stuff. We take it as gospel what others tell us.

Any idea where I can find this info online. This is a question asked on other forums. It would help if I could back up any advice.

Phil, I agree with your statement about how we learn stuff. I saw Mr. Fedka had a relubing tutorial, and he uses Super Lube, a syntetic type of grease. Fedka lens relubing. Super Lube

Yes, I might have chosen the wrong grease, but I will order the grease Stephen recommended. I did need the grease fast, so I purchased. The grease is white in color, it does not float around in other parts of the lens and it is described having high temperature limit (it wont melt in Sahara...). It is no worse than relubing if I made the wrong choice. I'm still learning.

[Stephen]

Truls...I am petty sure the grease you used is silicone with PTFE and a suitable alternative for the LaBelle.
Yes, I noticed several camera forum references to breaking down, but I think this was slight miss information spreading via the net. There are specification sheet PDF's from many makers on the net, but very technical in nature, but rest assured they agree on not breaking down.

I remember as a child my father entering into a correspondence with a neighbour about Moly additives and Molyslip in oil. The gentleman had read letters to the Autocar about the dangers of Molyslip, and separation of the solid moly out of the oil or grease.
The theory proposed was a sudden breakdown allowing metal to metal contact, resulting in sudden bearing failure.

He advised my father, that as an experienced Army Officer responsible for motor transport, he would not use it, as it shortened the engine life, was messy, blocked oil filters and was generally a con by the makers.

Unfortunately he was a bit unaware of my fathers background, my Grandfather ran a fleet of lorries and vans, and my father was an expert in engines, gearboxes and was a motor hill climbing champion, and raced Morgan 3 wheelers.

All the lorries had been run on moly since it became available in the late 1920's, and all my fathers various engines were run with it. He and Grandad reckoned it doubled the engines life, valve stems did not wear, and gearboxes were quieter. The business relied on it during the war to keep the oil bill down.

If the Major had looked up the moly details , he would have found it went through all filters, as the particles are so small. He responded by saying modern oil filters were finer, untrue in the 1950's. Dad's A series Austin engine was able to get to 120,000 before any attention worth worrying about, on molyslip. B series Riley engine did 220,000, with just new rings.

We were all amused that the Major's Triumph Herald managed only 60,000, before a re-bore, new valves, worn mains, and the worn camshaft was replaced.....he still stood by the letter column of the Autocar till the last.............

Moly is far too messy to use in cameras, silicone plus PTFE are both inert, (except to silicone seals), clean, and maintain viscosity across a wide temperature range.

Stephen.

[philbirch]

A Major cock-up I'd say 

[daveh]

Interesting stuff.


One small point. My memory of Molyslip was that it was more of a post WWII development, rather than the late 1920s, and hadn't been available that long before I got my first car (mid 1960s). Molyslip's own website has this to say:

During the 1940's and 50's, a new concept in lubrication was evolving, that of dry, permanent lubrication. The exceptional properties of molybdenum disulphide enabled engineers not only to coat the surface of a metal with a durable lubricant, but also to protect the surface from scuffing and wear.

During the 1960's, the first MoS2 oil supplements were introduced to the market.