Beseler Topcon Super-D / Topcor 58mm f/1.4

[Deleted]

Hi guys,

First time in the forum, but this seemed like a good place to start with this camera.

My parents had the camera described above, and I now have it.  There are a few issues with it, and I am curious about how to proceed, if anything can actually be done.  There are three main issues that I see with the camera at this point and they are...

1) The film roller mechanism that sits into the film canister to roll the film back will not raise any longer.  The crank wheel on top of the camera will lift to a point, but it will not raise the fork inside the camera, so essentially you cannot load a roll of film in the camera.  I have looked at this at a basic level, but I have not attempted to open the case to see if I can find the cause.  Any ideas of how to go about fixing this?

2)  The lens latch that locks the lens in place appears to have come off.  I have the metal latch piece, but I can't see how it goes back on, though I can see where it goes back on.  There are four screws that hold the metal plate where this came off of, but I have not attempted yet to open that to see if I can get it to lock back into place.

3)  The lens appears to have some fungus growing on the inner elements.  This camera was found in my mom's garage, and there is no telling how long it has been out there.  I attempted to remove the casing of the lens to try to get to the elements to clean them, but could only get a few rings from the outer case removed, but could not get inside.  Is there some technique to opening this?  Does anyone know where I can find a repair manual to provide steps to properly disassemble/reassemble the lens body?

DISCLAIMER:  I have never opened a camera beyond the film cavity (i.e. to put the film in).  

I would hate to lose this camera, as it otherwise is in great shape, plus the lens seems to be a really, really good (fast) lens.  Any help or direction I can get would be great!

Thanks

[Deleted]

Main thing to remember if it has fungus is to keep it away from other cameras and lenses.. If fungus can destroy lens coatings. Sometimes it's not worth the trouble to try to get rid of it. I threw away a 50mm f/1.4 Nikkor rather than take a chance on it infecting other equipment.

W.

[daveh]

John, hello and welcome.

I've got a SuperD. I assume all models are the same.

I can't really help lens-wise.

1) The rewind has a double rising mechanism - so you don't knock your fingers against the prism. I presume only one section is rising. Perhaps try some lighter fluid and see if that loosens it first.

2) Lens latch: This is just held in place by one screw. I wonder if the screw has broken?

I'll do some photos and post them soon

Camera manual available from Butkus. Workshop manuals are advertised on the internet. I'm trying to remember if I actually have one - if I do it's probably in the box that I have mislaid, along with some Leica manuals and other bits and bobs.

Best of luck, Dave.

[daveh]

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The rewind: as I said earlier there are two rising parts. In photo one the "extra height" riser has been lifted, but not the part than engages the film. It's on a screw and rises to full height with about 1/2 turn clockwise. The actual part than engages the film canister should just be a simple pull up on the knob. It's smooth and easy on mine.

Incidentally there is a separate hot shoe attachment that goes over the rewind knob - the contacts are visible in the photographs. I have two of them - one of which is "missing". I wish I could find that box of stuff!

[Deleted]

Thanks for the information. daveh, I remember my parents having the flash attachment with the twist-on adapter for the rewind knob. Seeing your photo here, I will try a little more. I don't have lighter fluid to try to loosen the lifter...is there another lubricant that I could try? I think I have some 3-in-1 out in the garage, that maybe I could use a drop (Pardon my ignorance here, but this is my first time trying this on a camera).

As for the lens latch, I see that screw that you show on your picture, but it is still attached to the latch, and I can move that spindle up and down, but cannot remove it, from the latch. I wonder if it sheared off, and if so, I guess the only recourse is to find a "parts" camera to try to replace that assembly?

@wayne, thanks for the information about spreading. I haven't had the lens near my other lenses, but thanks for the heads-up. I would never have known that it would cross-infect another lens. Do you think there is any hope for that lens, or should I just try to find a decent lens on eBay or Craigslist? I don't know of any other place to find a lens for it other than those sources...and even then it is probably questionable.

[daveh]

Jon,
I'd be a bit wary about using 3-in-1 oil. Lighter fluid loosens all sorts of things without leaving any troublesome residue. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the latch. Can you do some photos of it?

I've got the 1.4 lens - it's in good condition other than the rubber has stretched. I'm still hoping that I might find a way to shrink it rather than any other solution. I have got a 1.8 lens too, nut that's another item that I can't find.

[Deleted]

Here are the pictures of the latch.  After getting it under macro lens, it looks like it might have sheared off.  What do you think?  Is this repairable, or should I find a spare somewhere and try to fix it that way?

I did try to work some more on the film winder.  That thing is pretty stuck.  I have tried to gently pry it up with a screwdriver and also with pliers (forking under the cap and applying upward pressure) and the thing just will not budge.

When you said lighter fluid, are you referring to what you would use on a charcoal grill?  If so, I can try that later this afternoon.

(Hope the pictures show up.  If they don't, I will provide the links below for you to click on.)

Top view - 1drv.ms/1pGPbCu

Bottom view - 1drv.ms/1pGP6Pi

[Deleted]

Holy crap!!! I am so freakin' happy right now!

I found a video at that shows how to disassemble the lens I have for a different issue (his was a broken aperture leaf). But I was able to get to where the dirt/fungus/whatever was on the inside of the lens and clean it. Getting ready to put the lens back together, but the glass looks 1000x better than it did. I will be cleaning the other elements shortly, but oh man! did that make my day!

[daveh]

Good find on the lens videos.

It certainly looks as though there4 is something broken from the plate the latch fastens to. I haven't had a closer look at my SuperD - I can't find a screwdriver that neatly fits the cross-heads and I don't want to damage them by using the wrong tool. I have had a look at my RE2. This has been apart a few times. One would suspect things are similar, but that if so it's hard to see how the plate would have broken.

On the RE2 the top plate has to be removed before the plate round the lens throat can be taken off. I don't think this is the case with the SuperD. Just removing the lens throat plate should show what has broken (if anything) where the latch attaches to.

I'm afraid mathematics isn't the strong point of this forum: the attachments say up to 1mb, but won't even let me load 800kb. it looks as though the rest will be done on another post.


I've just tried to alter the attachment file. It won't let me upload it even though it's smaller than the file its replacing. with the flickr hassles we seem to have hit the buffers.


Lighter fuel: as in (petrol) cigarette lighters. i don't know about BBQ lighter fluids. No doubt someone out there will know, but they are probably all too busy extolling the virtues of Nikons or Minoltas to look at this thread.

[daveh]

Sorry. I was intending to put other photos up, but as I say above I seem to have exceeded the limit on attachments for this forum. Flickr have played around with their system and while it was easy to post photos from it previously now none of the links seem to do anything. I've just found the links.

[Deleted]

Lighter fluid isn't what you use on charcoal. It's the king used in the old wick cigarette lighters. Sold in the US as Ronsonol. I think the generic name is Naptha. Be careful using it. A tiny drop can migrate long distances very quickly. Good for unsticking leaf shutters if you are careful to keep it off the lens elements.

[Stephen]

Just a note or two, be careful with the re-assembly, lenses of the quality of Topcon, were hand assembled, and collimated as each assembly was put into the rings and seats within the lens body and focus structure.

Collimation is simply adjusting the lens element side to side, the play to do this is slight, but the movement is only microns, on the best assembly work.

It was done with glass etched targets viewed through each element, adjusted with a powerful accurate microscope viewer, or these days with a laser collimator. The aim is a prefect straight line optically from front to rear of the elements.

The reason for this is the elimination of colour fringing and stigmatic aberrations, ( off optical centre effects),

When a lens is taken apart if the glass is held by rings ,and loose when the rings are eased, then it was collimated.

Some collimation was done out of the lens body, in glued up assemblies of several elements, and these are elements contained in a brass or metal tube as an assembly. Usually you do not loose collimation removing these.

You will not ruin a lens by taking it apart, especially when rescuing a fungus ridden lens. The fungus can be removed totally with peroxide and ammonia washing etc, but may leave etched lines on the surfaces, not just the coatings, but into to glass surface as the fungus weeps strong acid.

But on re-assembly be careful to duplicate the work done by Topcon etc as far as possible!...and do not expect miracles, the lens may loose it's edge on performance unless collimation is done again, or at least checked, not a task that can be done outside an optical lab.

Also the larger the aperture, the bigger the problems of lining up all the glass, so the Topcon classes itself as difficult in some terms.

The Topcon are fine lenses, they were made in house by Topcon themselves, and enjoyed a reputation as about the best bar Nikon. They sold well in the States, but had a crass and stupid importer in the UK, who succeeded in ruining the reputation of a fine maker.

Stephen.

[Deleted]

daveh Thanks for the images, that helps out some. My camera does look a bit different, but I was able to get the throat ring out and have a better look inside. From what I can tell, it looks like the piece has sheared off. It appears the only way to fix this is to secure a new (to me) throat ring with the latch and just replace what I have. I suppose I will have to keep my eyes open on ebay for a "parts" body that I can steal from.

@wayne Thanks for the clarification. I will see if I can either find someone who has some close by, since I only need a drop or two. Worst case, is I can't imagine this is a high-dollar item at the store. I am still a bit concerned that it will actually help. I'm afraid I will have to take the camera more apart to get to this assembly. The "feel" of trying to raise the film "fork" (for lack of a better word) is that it is more than just a fused part. I could be wrong, but there is absolutely no give to the lifting of that part. It feels more like something is out of alignment and just locking the fork down.

Stephen I appreciate the background on the alignment of the lenses. We will have to see how the disassembly of the lens has affected the picture quality. Unfortunately, I don't have any original pictures in good shape to compare to. You mentioned that removing the fungus is done with peroxide and ammonia. I have some lens cleaning solution from Vivitar (for better or worse) that contains Betaine, Amphoteric Surfactant, Polyoxyethylene octylphenol ether in it. The contaminant removed rather easily. So maybe it wasn't actually fungus growing on the lens, but maybe some other substance? Since I am new and you guys have worked with this level of a camera for much longer, maybe you have some insight of what that might be.

Now a bit of a funny story about the lens cleaning...I got everything put back on after cleaning and then found another spot on the lens that I somehow missed. Oh well, I can get some more practice removing the retaining rings. However, I put the Hoya filter back in after reassembly and looked through the lens. I was shocked to find all kinds of dirt and dust back on the "lens." But then I realized the filter was on there, took it off, and all was good again, so in all my work, I had forgotten to clean the filter.

Hopefully, I can get this to a working camera and see some amazing shots come from it. I am very excited to see the small victories come from working on this wonderful little camera. I think a big part of the excitement comes from its link to my childhood. This camera followed us and recorded several of our family vacations while my dad was still able to get around well. Even though my mom bought the camera, dad used it a lot, and I wish he were here to see it being restored.

[Stephen]

Usually the peroxide solutions used are stronger by far than a lens cleaner, but if the "fungus" has gone easily, then it ain't fungus!, might be another airbourne mould.
The cleaner is an anti-fungal mixture and should contain 94 per cent distilled water, 4 per cent ammonia and 2 per cent hydrogen. (Leica source). Soak for two hours in the solution. The Ammonia and Peroxide are normal chemists strength BPC grade. I would add more peroxide personally.( I worked for UK lens maker...) If in the US then the store will have standard US strengths that equate to the British Pharmacopoeia.

Stephen.

[daveh]

Jon, three photos of the SuperD lens mount plate.