PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Jun 27, 2010 16:26:18 GMT -5
Watched the England vs Germany match this afternoon.
Don't know how you feel about it, John, but for me it was an abysmal performance by England.
PeterW
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Post by herron on Jun 27, 2010 20:56:29 GMT -5
Hi ! Just watched the England-game and I am sorry for you, John. But there is one thing I did not understand. I am not much familiar with football-rules, but if millions of people see definitely a scored goal on TV, why is this circumstance not accepted by the referee  MIK In the world of FIFA (the governing body of soccer) the final say goes to the referee in the middle. All of them are evaluated for their performance, and only the best of them will center a match at this level. Still, they can (and do) make mistakes. As for me, I think potential scoring situations in soccer that require an interpretation of any kind, such as offside, or whether a ball is completely over the line (which it must be to be a goal ... or out-of-bounds). At least there should be a certain number of allowed challenges where video replay could be used to make the final determination. One of the problems, of course, is that the clock does not stop at any time during the half. All that being said, England looked flat (again), but was cheated of a goal, just as USA was against them!  |
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Post by John Parry on Jun 28, 2010 15:04:51 GMT -5
To a certain extent, what goes around comes around. Germany have always contended that they scored during the 1966 World Cup, and that if the goal had been allowed to stand it would have changed the whole game.
England started off very poorly against Germany (although I would say that Germany's first goal was a very well worked set-piece. Did you see the German keeper's run-up to achieve the distance on that goal kick and their striker's superb positioning right on the end of it?). Their second goal caught our defense all over the place.
But then we started something of a fight-back. Upson's was a well taken goal (also from a set-piece), and if Lampard's goal had been allowed to stand, we'd have gone in level at half time after coming back from 2 -0 down. Who can say what would have happened then in the second half if we'd come out with our tails up?
But that's all in the land of Might Have Been. You're right Peter, we were terrible from half-time onwards. We pushed forwards trying to claw back that second goal and were caught on the break by textbook errors for the German third and fourth goals. Rooney didn't turn up, and the player everyone'd bring on if you really needed a goal of course, would be Emile Heskey. The worst defeat in our World Cup history. It was awful.
Mik - blame Sepp Blatter. He wants to retain the 'human element' for refereeing decisions, but he's making his referees look like idiots. As you say, the whole world saw that ball land squarely a metre over the line only seconds after the referee disallowed the goal. That referee and linesman will never live down that decision.
Ron - There are decisions and decisions! In another area that I know you're interested, somebody came on 5-Live (our main nation-wide sport radio network) this morning with some interesting statistics about the number of UEFA qualified coaches in the various European countries. It turns out that Germany heads the list with 30-odd thousand (I can't remember the actual numbers), but Italy and France have 20-odd thousand and Spain something like 15 thousand. England have two thousand.
While I generally take statistics with a pinch of salt, that one made me stop and think!
ps I've never seen a film, TV footage or photograph of Germany's 1966 'goal' that showed the ball actually crossing the line!
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Post by herron on Jun 28, 2010 18:11:43 GMT -5
ps I've never seen a film, TV footage or photograph of Germany's 1966 'goal' that showed the ball actually crossing the line! This is by no means definitive, but it's hard to tell. The linesman said the ball was not completely over the line in that 1966 game, but from this angle it's very hard to tell. I've heard some engineer somewhere figured out there was 6cm of the ball still over the line ... which means it was not a goal. But that is such a difficult call! I spent 9 seasons as a ref, and calls like this are so hard! |
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PeterW
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Post by PeterW on Jun 28, 2010 18:59:12 GMT -5
John,
I've got to come back on this, John. I've heard this sentiment from a number of commentators and sports writers.
But what are these men that are supposed to represent the best of English football? They aren't amateurs for God's sake. They're highly paid professionals.
The differences? An amateur wonders if he can do it. A professional knows he can do it. An amateur can be forgiven for becoming disheartened with a bad scoreline at half time, going out for the second half with a figurative weight pressing down on his shoulders. A professional puts disappointment behind him, and plays every moment for that moment. He doesn't have a tail. If he did he should be in a dog show not on a football pitch.
And if professionals should need a pep talk to raise their spirits at half-time, and remind them what they are, that's the job of the manager. If he can't do it he shouldn't be a manager.
A professional should be able to be certain that the other members of his team are in the right place at the right time because they are also professionals and have anticipated what is likely to happen.
Did you notice, particularly in the second half how, several times, the England defenders allowed themselves to be drawn by the Germans into a group in the middle of the pitch in front of goal? They left the wings completely open for a German winger to take the ball right up to the goal line. OK, one England defender rushed out to meet him. Where was the back-up defender to pick up the ball when the German tried to get round the first? And where was the mid-field player to take the ball from the second defender and start a counter-break?
Anticipation and back-up like this should have been taught at second and third division level. I used to admire that sort of play back in the 1960s from teams like Arsenal, Manchester United, Newcastle and Leeds.
I know things are very different now from 60-odd years ago when I played at right wing in the RAF at Station and Group level (heavy boots, 5 - 3 - 2 formation).
We were amateurs in the true sense of the word in that we loved the game and would sooner spend our free time training and playing than going down to the pub. But if we made simple mistakes like this the coach would roast us for it - and he had Flight Sergeant's rank to back up his roasting!
Sorry to rant on, I was just so furious after watching the game.
PeterW
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Post by John Parry on Jun 29, 2010 17:18:24 GMT -5
Ron - I know how difficult it is, but for the first time in history the South Africans replayed every angle of every goal attempt on the screens overlooking the match (FIFA have promised to stop that bad habit). You'd have thought the referee would have gone over to the linesman and asked him if he was sure about his decision, while raising his eyebrows and inclining his head towards the screen. No - he was certain it wasn't a goal, so let him go down in history.
Peter - I'm not defending them. Capello said he would never play a player who wasn't fit (Rooney and Barry), and he would never play a player who wasn't in his club's first team (Joe Cole and Shaun Wright-Phillips). Compound that with repeatedly playing players out of position (John Terry, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Joe Cole), and it's no wonder we didn't perform.
OK, I'm just a bad loser. Gnghhhh!
ps Ron - 44 years ago - I get confused!
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Post by herron on Jun 29, 2010 18:52:28 GMT -5
Ron - I know how difficult it is, but for the first time in history the South Africans replayed every angle of every goal attempt on the screens overlooking the match (FIFA have promised to stop that bad habit). You'd have thought the referee would have gone over to the linesman and asked him if he was sure about his decision, while raising his eyebrows and inclining his head towards the screen. No - he was certain it wasn't a goal, so let him go down in history. Unfortunately, FIFA is the governing body, and they don't allow video reviews (one of the few professional sports left who don't). The whole television world saw the replays, from all angles, and I'm sure the ref and linesman (and everyone in the stadium) would have seen it, too. Hopefully, this will make for some serious discussion about reviews in 2014. |
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Jul 3, 2010 16:57:31 GMT -5
Football could easily borrow 'laws' from other sports. It is a relatively simple matter to have video evidence looked at by an extra official. The clocked can be stopped: in fact the clock can be stopped for anything that attracts extra time. Rugby uses it and everyone can see to the exact second how much time is left.
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Post by John Parry on Jul 5, 2010 15:59:58 GMT -5
Anyway, this morning I was in the garden and happened to see a fairy struggling to get out of a flower which contained a pool of water. With great delicacy, I managed to fish the fairy out, and she awarded me one wish.
Obviously I said the first thing that came into my mind - "I'd like to live forever".
Her reply was "Sadly, I don't have the power to confer immortality to any human being".
I took a moment to think then, and finally asked for "I'd like to live long enough to see England win the World Cup again".
"Oh, you crafty devil !"
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Post by herron on Jul 5, 2010 16:52:19 GMT -5
Football could easily borrow 'laws' from other sports. It is a relatively simple matter to have video evidence looked at by an extra official. The clocked can be stopped: in fact the clock can be stopped for anything that attracts extra time. Rugby uses it and everyone can see to the exact second how much time is left. Ah! But "officially" the clock in soccer does not stop, for anything. Hence the referee's added "stoppage time" at the end. |
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Post by herron on Jul 5, 2010 17:54:11 GMT -5
Anyway, this morning I was in the garden and happened to see a fairy struggling to get out of a flower which contained a pool of water. With great delicacy, I managed to fish the fairy out, and she awarded me one wish. Obviously I said the first thing that came into my mind - "I'd like to live forever". Her reply was "Sadly, I don't have the power to confer immortality to any human being". I took a moment to think then, and finally asked for "I'd like to live long enough to see England win the World Cup again". "Oh, you crafty devil !" Oh, but pity the poor magical fairy having to deal with a USA win! Few people, fairies included, know the USA was one of the original signatories to FIFA and not only played in the first World Cup, but actually finished third! Their next claim to soccer fame would not occur for 20 years when, in Brazil in 1950, they defeated the highly favored England 1–0. The English press, certain the news they received was a typo, initiallly reported the result as England 10 - USA 1. The unexpected USA win led to the match being described as the "Miracle on Grass." However, the USA did not even qualify to participate for another 40 years! The 2010 Cup is the farthest the USA has progessed since 1930! The only thing craftier than wishing to live long enough to see England win the World Cup again would be to wish to live long enough for the USA to win it at all! |
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daveh
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Post by daveh on Jul 5, 2010 18:28:12 GMT -5
Ron, football has a problem in that, at the top end, it ignores almost everything that has common sense attached to it.
Julio1fer, well Uruguay are the only non-European side left now. I was hoping for Parguay to make it too - I have friends in Ascunscion. At my rugby club, Caldy, we entertained the Old Christians Club in the late 1980s. Curda, Paraguay, had been over the previous year and Hugo and Ruben returned for a full season and indeed played against OCC.
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Post by John Parry on Jul 6, 2010 17:08:02 GMT -5
Oh, but pity the poor magical fairy having to deal with a USA win! Few people, fairies included, know the USA was one of the original signatories to FIFA and not only played in the first World Cup, but actually finished third! Their next claim to soccer fame would not occur for 20 years when, in Brazil in 1950, they defeated the highly favored England 1–0. The English press, certain the news they received was a typo, initiallly reported the result as England 10 - USA 1. The unexpected USA win led to the match being described as the "Miracle on Grass." However, the USA did not even qualify to participate for another 40 years! The 2010 Cup is the farthest the USA has progessed since 1930! The only thing craftier than wishing to live long enough to see England win the World Cup again would be to wish to live long enough for the USA to win it at all! Ron, Don't undersell yourselves! For many years that 1950 US victory was drilled into every English schoolboy as an example of the dangers of complacency! If truth be told, the English team went into every WC from then until 1966 as serious under-achievers. Alf Ramsay knocked that out of them - anybody who was over-confident was ruthlessly dropped (one of the country's leading goalscorers at the time - Jimmy Greaves, was never selected). He went for a team of players who worked for each other (as the US team did in this year's competition). In 1970 he took an even better team to Mexico, where they were beset by bad luck - as PeterW's mentioned, the loss of our incredible goalkeeper Gordon Banks being the worst of our problems. Since then, we've never looked like winning it. I think with the number of good youngsters you've got coming up, if you stick with the work ethic thing, with one or two superstars, you could be serious contenders next time round. Meanwhile, I'll go on rescuing fairies.... LOL! Regards - John |
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Post by julio1fer on Jul 6, 2010 20:42:23 GMT -5
We lost to the better side today, so kudos to Netherlands!
As we went down fighting, no regrets here and everyone is mighty proud.
Paraguay also went down playing quite well against Spain.
I'm really sorry for Argentina, who lost their bearings completely against Germany. As for Brazil, we all hope they start playing again like South Americans do, and forget this boring Dunga style.
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Post by herron on Jul 8, 2010 14:07:13 GMT -5
Oh, but pity the poor magical fairy having to deal with a USA win! Few people, fairies included, know the USA was one of the original signatories to FIFA and not only played in the first World Cup, but actually finished third! Their next claim to soccer fame would not occur for 20 years when, in Brazil in 1950, they defeated the highly favored England 1–0. The English press, certain the news they received was a typo, initiallly reported the result as England 10 - USA 1. The unexpected USA win led to the match being described as the "Miracle on Grass." However, the USA did not even qualify to participate for another 40 years! The 2010 Cup is the farthest the USA has progessed since 1930! The only thing craftier than wishing to live long enough to see England win the World Cup again would be to wish to live long enough for the USA to win it at all! Ron, Don't undersell yourselves! For many years that 1950 US victory was drilled into every English schoolboy as an example of the dangers of complacency! If truth be told, the English team went into every WC from then until 1966 as serious under-achievers. Alf Ramsay knocked that out of them - anybody who was over-confident was ruthlessly dropped (one of the country's leading goalscorers at the time - Jimmy Greaves, was never selected). He went for a team of players who worked for each other (as the US team did in this year's competition). In 1970 he took an even better team to Mexico, where they were beset by bad luck - as PeterW's mentioned, the loss of our incredible goalkeeper Gordon Banks being the worst of our problems. Since then, we've never looked like winning it. I think with the number of good youngsters you've got coming up, if you stick with the work ethic thing, with one or two superstars, you could be serious contenders next time round. Meanwhile, I'll go on rescuing fairies.... LOL! Regards - John I suppose there was a lot to say for the USA performance, compared to what it was in 1994. I've been around soccer here for more than 30 years now as a player, coach and referee. I've noticed the interest in it grow, and I've seen our young players get better and better. Who knows what's to come? Go USA 2014! ;D  |
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